7 ms·

I wish we had open source options for household appliances. It would be the best response to the planned obsolescence companies currently employ.

Schroedingersat 4y ago
I'm certain there's a niche in replacing the dmca protected garbage wholesale with a completely different board on some appliances. Wish I had the capital to try.
- HeyLaughingBoy 4y ago
  People do this all the time, but it's not marketed. When the control board for my washer died, I came across a bunch of Arduino projects to replace controls with new hardware. As an embedded systems engineer, I even considered designing a replacement controller, but that thought died the instant I found one for $30 on eBay. That, and the reality of the situation is that when I can buy a replacement washer for $400, I have no incentive to spend dozens of hours redesigning a control. Maybe if I was bored and wanted to create an OSHW project that maybe 5 other people on the planet would use.
voxadam 4y ago
I've long wanted to do something similar to David Tulloh's Linux powered microwave.[0] [0] https://lwn.net/Articles/674877/ https://lwn.net/Articles/674877/
huiiuiujiojio 4y ago
Could you expound on this? In my mind there must ultimately be a manufacturer of a given product. Even if there was a completely open source blender, for example, manufacturers would be incentivized to make it in such a way that it still breaks, unlike code where there is no factory and no resources being spent after the design (code) is finished.
- WaxProlix 4y ago
  Open source and open spec parts can be manufactured by anyone with a jigsaw, 3d printer, cnc machine, etc. You could walk into a maker space with $100 worth of materials and walk out with a repairable, maintainable blender or whatever that will last your lifetime, and your kids' lifetimes.
  - huiiuiujiojio 4y ago
    I was going to make a note in my first post about 3d printing but I forgot. In my opinion 3d printing cannot be a solution until metal 3d printing is cheap. For the blender example, do you really want to use a handmade blender consisting of a hacked together motor, blade, and glass? this seems like a recipe for disaster. For things that are 100% plastic, ie. basically the only type of thing a 3d printer can reliably produce, even then with required knowledge, planned obsolescence is less of an issue already. Plastic goods are either throw-away or durable enough for what they are (eg. a hairbrush). With regards to the cnc machine, yes it is more doable, but now with more time, money and knowledge required. Open source appliances are definitely not bad -- I can't imagine a downside to them -- but they can't do the same thing that open source software does.
    - lightedman 4y ago
      "For things that are 100% plastic, ie. basically the only type of thing a 3d printer can reliably produce" This is nowhere remotely near true. I've been testing SLS-printed diamond blades and coring bits for two years, now. They work just fine, and last longer than their stamped/brazed equivalents.
      - WaitWaitWha 4y ago
        > diamond blades and coring bits Can you point me a direction where I can learn more about this?
        lightedman 4y ago
Consultant32452 4y ago
I have a hard time thinking of appliances I own that are not easily repairable or lifetime lasting. I bought a commercial blender that is not repairable afaik but will definitely outlast my home use. My Speed Queen commercial washer and dryer will outlast me for sure, and are easily repairable if something does break. All the bathroom appliances either last forever or are easily repairable: sink, faucet, toilets. I think the trick is for many things you have to buy the commercial version to get something that's going to last "forever" or be built for repairability. The tough part is, do you want to buy a $3k commercial dishwasher when you could buy 6 $500 non-commercial dishwashers. I personally chose to buy the commercial washing machine and dryer, but I still have the "disposable" kitchen appliances that came with my house. When it's time to replace them I'll consider the upgrade. Depends on if this is my "forever" home.
- bluGill 4y ago
  Commercial dishwashers don't exist. The $3000 devices they call dishwashers are just dish sterilizers, and will not get anything except the loosest dirt off. I've been wanting a commercial dishwasher, but they don't seem to exist.
- HeyLaughingBoy 4y ago
  Exactly. Or simply don't buy bottom-of-the barrel appliances in the first place. I have a KitchenAid blender and mixer. Both are around 20 years old and have been repaired multiple times. KitchenAid appliances are well built and built to be easily repaired when they break. You can buy pretty much any replacement part for them.
jacknews 4y ago
Exactly. The problem currently is proprietary components (and interfaces between them), and tight integration. When almost anything breaks, you need a proprietary part, or even an entire subsystem, which is very often more expensive than junking the entire appliance and buying a new one, and often parts are not even available. We need modularity, more like a desktop PC or 3d printers, standard parts and interfaces. You don't have to throw that away (including screen, keyboard) when a stick of RAM breaks, for example.
- Gigachad 4y ago
  What if that tight integration brought the price down to what would be the cost of 5 modular and repairable versions? My toaster isn’t modular but it’s lasted 10 years so far and I don’t think I’d pay 5x more for the repairable one.
  - jacknews 4y ago
    It could be the opposite. Eg, instead of limited runs of electronic boards dedicated to a particular model, you use a collection of standard boards made in the zillions. I think your 5x example is unrealistic. It might be that much currently because long-lived rapairable devices are a boutique niche. But if stuff in general were built more with commodity modules (of whatever quality), it could actually be cheaper than custom designs, with their design overhead and lower-mass production. But the thing is, even if it's slightly more expensive to manufacture initially (and with electronics, it's often about mere pennies), the actual cost, if you factor in all the external costs transport/transport infrastructure, disposal, etc, etc, and especially the environmental cost, it's much higher for 'fast appliances' (ala fast fashion) than for longer-lived, more repairable choices.
harha 4y ago
One issue is the higher upfront cost and this is where high-tax Europe could make a smart move: reduce VAT on products that get certified to last longer (modularity, longer warranty, fair pricing on spare parts, refurbished program to re-sell devices). This might help incentivize consumers and producers. As an added benefit, they could upgrade components along the way, e.g. smart home integration with new standards for replacement parts.
pessimizer 4y ago
Would it be too hard to find good out-of-patent designs for appliances and to elaborate on them with details on manufacturing, assembly, and repair? Publishing complete documentation of an appliance like this would be the final product, really, because after you post a good design some Chinese factory (or 10) would start turning it out. I've personally been thinking about designing a standard classic drip coffee maker with parts that are easy to manufacture, replace, and clean. I have a personal belief that you should only ever have to buy one of those, and that the only reason that we go through many in a lifetime is because they're made of plastic, the reservoirs are impossible to clean, and the insides are often inaccessible without breaking something. A lot of Chinese stuff seems to be based on old (but still great) designs, for working with paper and printing, for working with leather, etc.. The shared designs result in a standardization for both parts and replacement between factories and over time; you'll be able to replace your alibaba paper cutter with exactly the same paper cutter 10 years from now. I love it.
- RosanaAnaDana 4y ago
  Man, you just brought up one of my biggest pet peeves. The design of modern drip coffee makers. Prior to about 15 years ago, the basket for the grounds was almost always full separated by a compartment from the heating element and pumping area. Slowly, these areas were combined into one, with a plastic lid that covers both where the grounds are place for filtering, and the basin that water sits in. Maybe its a simpler design. Maybe. By combining the regions, steam builds up and small particles of coffee find their way into the water storage basin (inevitably). Because of this, the heating element and pumping area are exposed to small particles of coffee, which creates buildup, and can clog the elements. Thus, a modern coffee maker designed in this way *will* fail after a number of cycles. There is no way to prevent particles of coffee from getting into the pumping area, and its otherwise inaccessible (no way to clean). Prior drip coffee makers, they had lasted me as long as I had an urn that still fit them. Never any issues with the mechanism. No issues with buildup or clogs in the water storage area. Its my number one consideration when purchasing a drip coffee maker.
  - inetknght 4y ago
_57jb 4y ago
We do...we really do! We have such a throwaway culture that prototyping and experimentation has a fairly low bar/cost. Getting serious and building a "sellable" product can have a bit of a ramp (my opinion due to the administrative and scale aspects which can arguably distract from the goal) but if you stick to the "by-the/for-the community" approach I feel we have a great moment where the protocols and many of the tools are open to try with. The challenge is the electrical side if you come from software and vice-versa. There are plenty of resources but it's scattered and getting started ends up touching a little bit of everything. Python and Arduino / Pi have been incredibly friendly to augment and don't feel like you need to start from scratch, take something that exists and extend it. Zigbee, X10, WiFi, and Bluetooth LE are all common and open ways to talk with easy to comeby plug-and-play ish modules/hats for microcontrollers. I suggest Python, not necessarily my favorite, but by far the friendliest and batteries included for experimentation.

Schroedingersat 4y ago

I'm certain there's a niche in replacing the dmca protected garbage wholesale with a completely different board on some appliances. Wish I had the capital to try.

HeyLaughingBoy 4y ago
People do this all the time, but it's not marketed. When the control board for my washer died, I came across a bunch of Arduino projects to replace controls with new hardware. As an embedded systems engineer, I even considered designing a replacement controller, but that thought died the instant I found one for $30 on eBay. That, and the reality of the situation is that when I can buy a replacement washer for $400, I have no incentive to spend dozens of hours redesigning a control. Maybe if I was bored and wanted to create an OSHW project that maybe 5 other people on the planet would use.

voxadam 4y ago

I've long wanted to do something similar to David Tulloh's Linux powered microwave.[0] [0] https://lwn.net/Articles/674877/ https://lwn.net/Articles/674877/

huiiuiujiojio 4y ago

Could you expound on this? In my mind there must ultimately be a manufacturer of a given product. Even if there was a completely open source blender, for example, manufacturers would be incentivized to make it in such a way that it still breaks, unlike code where there is no factory and no resources being spent after the design (code) is finished.

WaxProlix 4y ago
Open source and open spec parts can be manufactured by anyone with a jigsaw, 3d printer, cnc machine, etc. You could walk into a maker space with $100 worth of materials and walk out with a repairable, maintainable blender or whatever that will last your lifetime, and your kids' lifetimes.
- huiiuiujiojio 4y ago
  I was going to make a note in my first post about 3d printing but I forgot. In my opinion 3d printing cannot be a solution until metal 3d printing is cheap. For the blender example, do you really want to use a handmade blender consisting of a hacked together motor, blade, and glass? this seems like a recipe for disaster. For things that are 100% plastic, ie. basically the only type of thing a 3d printer can reliably produce, even then with required knowledge, planned obsolescence is less of an issue already. Plastic goods are either throw-away or durable enough for what they are (eg. a hairbrush). With regards to the cnc machine, yes it is more doable, but now with more time, money and knowledge required. Open source appliances are definitely not bad -- I can't imagine a downside to them -- but they can't do the same thing that open source software does.
  - lightedman 4y ago
    "For things that are 100% plastic, ie. basically the only type of thing a 3d printer can reliably produce" This is nowhere remotely near true. I've been testing SLS-printed diamond blades and coring bits for two years, now. They work just fine, and last longer than their stamped/brazed equivalents.
    - WaitWaitWha 4y ago
      > diamond blades and coring bits Can you point me a direction where I can learn more about this?
      - lightedman 4y ago

Consultant32452 4y ago

I have a hard time thinking of appliances I own that are not easily repairable or lifetime lasting. I bought a commercial blender that is not repairable afaik but will definitely outlast my home use. My Speed Queen commercial washer and dryer will outlast me for sure, and are easily repairable if something does break. All the bathroom appliances either last forever or are easily repairable: sink, faucet, toilets. I think the trick is for many things you have to buy the commercial version to get something that's going to last "forever" or be built for repairability. The tough part is, do you want to buy a $3k commercial dishwasher when you could buy 6 $500 non-commercial dishwashers. I personally chose to buy the commercial washing machine and dryer, but I still have the "disposable" kitchen appliances that came with my house. When it's time to replace them I'll consider the upgrade. Depends on if this is my "forever" home.

bluGill 4y ago
Commercial dishwashers don't exist. The $3000 devices they call dishwashers are just dish sterilizers, and will not get anything except the loosest dirt off. I've been wanting a commercial dishwasher, but they don't seem to exist.
HeyLaughingBoy 4y ago
Exactly. Or simply don't buy bottom-of-the barrel appliances in the first place. I have a KitchenAid blender and mixer. Both are around 20 years old and have been repaired multiple times. KitchenAid appliances are well built and built to be easily repaired when they break. You can buy pretty much any replacement part for them.

jacknews 4y ago

Exactly. The problem currently is proprietary components (and interfaces between them), and tight integration. When almost anything breaks, you need a proprietary part, or even an entire subsystem, which is very often more expensive than junking the entire appliance and buying a new one, and often parts are not even available. We need modularity, more like a desktop PC or 3d printers, standard parts and interfaces. You don't have to throw that away (including screen, keyboard) when a stick of RAM breaks, for example.

Gigachad 4y ago
What if that tight integration brought the price down to what would be the cost of 5 modular and repairable versions? My toaster isn’t modular but it’s lasted 10 years so far and I don’t think I’d pay 5x more for the repairable one.
- jacknews 4y ago
  It could be the opposite. Eg, instead of limited runs of electronic boards dedicated to a particular model, you use a collection of standard boards made in the zillions. I think your 5x example is unrealistic. It might be that much currently because long-lived rapairable devices are a boutique niche. But if stuff in general were built more with commodity modules (of whatever quality), it could actually be cheaper than custom designs, with their design overhead and lower-mass production. But the thing is, even if it's slightly more expensive to manufacture initially (and with electronics, it's often about mere pennies), the actual cost, if you factor in all the external costs transport/transport infrastructure, disposal, etc, etc, and especially the environmental cost, it's much higher for 'fast appliances' (ala fast fashion) than for longer-lived, more repairable choices.

harha 4y ago

One issue is the higher upfront cost and this is where high-tax Europe could make a smart move: reduce VAT on products that get certified to last longer (modularity, longer warranty, fair pricing on spare parts, refurbished program to re-sell devices). This might help incentivize consumers and producers. As an added benefit, they could upgrade components along the way, e.g. smart home integration with new standards for replacement parts.

pessimizer 4y ago

Would it be too hard to find good out-of-patent designs for appliances and to elaborate on them with details on manufacturing, assembly, and repair? Publishing complete documentation of an appliance like this would be the final product, really, because after you post a good design some Chinese factory (or 10) would start turning it out. I've personally been thinking about designing a standard classic drip coffee maker with parts that are easy to manufacture, replace, and clean. I have a personal belief that you should only ever have to buy one of those, and that the only reason that we go through many in a lifetime is because they're made of plastic, the reservoirs are impossible to clean, and the insides are often inaccessible without breaking something. A lot of Chinese stuff seems to be based on old (but still great) designs, for working with paper and printing, for working with leather, etc.. The shared designs result in a standardization for both parts and replacement between factories and over time; you'll be able to replace your alibaba paper cutter with exactly the same paper cutter 10 years from now. I love it.

RosanaAnaDana 4y ago
Man, you just brought up one of my biggest pet peeves. The design of modern drip coffee makers. Prior to about 15 years ago, the basket for the grounds was almost always full separated by a compartment from the heating element and pumping area. Slowly, these areas were combined into one, with a plastic lid that covers both where the grounds are place for filtering, and the basin that water sits in. Maybe its a simpler design. Maybe. By combining the regions, steam builds up and small particles of coffee find their way into the water storage basin (inevitably). Because of this, the heating element and pumping area are exposed to small particles of coffee, which creates buildup, and can clog the elements. Thus, a modern coffee maker designed in this way *will* fail after a number of cycles. There is no way to prevent particles of coffee from getting into the pumping area, and its otherwise inaccessible (no way to clean). Prior drip coffee makers, they had lasted me as long as I had an urn that still fit them. Never any issues with the mechanism. No issues with buildup or clogs in the water storage area. Its my number one consideration when purchasing a drip coffee maker.
- inetknght 4y ago

_57jb 4y ago

We do...we really do! We have such a throwaway culture that prototyping and experimentation has a fairly low bar/cost. Getting serious and building a "sellable" product can have a bit of a ramp (my opinion due to the administrative and scale aspects which can arguably distract from the goal) but if you stick to the "by-the/for-the community" approach I feel we have a great moment where the protocols and many of the tools are open to try with. The challenge is the electrical side if you come from software and vice-versa. There are plenty of resources but it's scattered and getting started ends up touching a little bit of everything. Python and Arduino / Pi have been incredibly friendly to augment and don't feel like you need to start from scratch, take something that exists and extend it. Zigbee, X10, WiFi, and Bluetooth LE are all common and open ways to talk with easy to comeby plug-and-play ish modules/hats for microcontrollers. I suggest Python, not necessarily my favorite, but by far the friendliest and batteries included for experimentation.