4 ms·

If you don't believe Uber's goal is rent seeking, I have a bridge to sell you. Your points about how Uber creates brand value and optimization is nice and all,

If you don't believe Uber's goal is rent seeking, I have a bridge to sell you. Your points about how Uber creates brand value and optimization is nice and all, but maybe have a look at the consequences of it not on the economy, but on people: same problem as Doordash, paid like crap, having to work 16 hours a day while paying for gas and your vehicle. I will not praise such a predatory model because I can rate a dude 5 stars for giving me a bottle of water. You know why ? Because if I don't rate him 5 stars, at some point Uber will just decide "fuck off, your average score is below 4.5, you don't deserve to work" and kick them out. In every country they've come, Uber has abused every kind of gray area (or straight up black area and just decided to pay the fines) to destroy any existing or potential competition. Forcing employees to register themselves as individual contractors when they work all the time for Uber, while not getting any of the benefits that Uber should be paying for ? Yeah, that's their standard. It's not a "homeowner lobby" pushing for cars. It's a first and foremost car lobby (reminder that jaywalking is a crime invented by the car lobbies), as well as a lack of foresight (and corruption) from the competent authorities. I don't know about the case in the US, but no homeowner lobby in Europe will say "oh no, don't build a tramway line" or "oh no, a bus stop". Public transit nearby makes a home's value skyrocket.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
hackerlight 4y ago
Rent seeking is their goal, but that's irrelevant to whether they also create positive surplus value through the mechanisms I outlined. The economy vs. people distinction is a false dichotomy. Consumers (who are also people) can benefit from more efficient service provision and higher quality service. > It's not a "homeowner lobby" pushing for cars. It's the homeowner lobby pushing for sprawl, which indirectly leads to cars because public transport can't be properly provisioned across spawl without huge cost. Once you have sprawl enforced by law, everything else follows as a guaranteed consequence: networks of roads to connect that sprawl, and therefore cars.
- ohgodplsno 4y ago
  >Consumers (who are also people) can benefit from more efficient service provision and higher quality service. Consumers can also benefit from child slavery to buy their clothes ever cheaper, but we've decided as a society that it was kind of uncool to do it. But if you're willing to sacrifice a bunch of workers to drive for your comfort 16 hours a day, being paid like shit, feel free to. But pretending it creates positive surplus value while ignoring every single negative externality is laughable.
  - hackerlight 4y ago
    I am not "pretending" that it creates positive surplus value. It does create surplus value through simple mechanisms. Also, it's unfair to say I am ignoring every single negative externality. All I did was challenge the questionable claim that Uber has much to do with the state of our cities being car-centric and underprovisioned by public transport, because the root cause of that situation is homeowners, not Uber. I didn't give my blessing to all of Uber's practices. > sacrifice a bunch of workers to drive for your comfort 16 hours a day, being paid like shit Putting aside the false analogy to child labor, I don't accept the framing that all low wage labor is uncool. It's a type of mindless compassion that can actually lead to anti-utilitarian outcomes in practice. Although I have no positive or negative judgment of Uber in particular regarding this point, because I haven't looked into it for Uber. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32627174 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32627174
    - ghaff 4y ago
      Many cities and their suburbs were car-centric before Uber and many will be car-centric after Uber. Perhaps somewhat fewer will feel the need to own a car (or a second car) but that doesn't really change the basic nature of transportation options. If anything, there's probably been a (little) bit more attention paid to public transit and things like bike lanes in some cities during the period Uber has existed. Many of us use Uber or Lyft once in a blue moon. My life wouldn't change one iota if Uber vanished tomorrow.
mamonster 4y ago
Well first of all Uber drivers don't have to work 16 hours of day, that's a straight up lie(in Europe). Can you work 16 hours a day? Sure, you can. But you have to be very clear about the sort of person that works 16 hours a day driving Uber: It's a person that literally cannot get hired to 99.9% of other jobs. Uber didn't cause this, but previously these people would be either on unemployment or doing crime.
- ohgodplsno 4y ago
  You don't seem to understand. There are no "Uber drivers". Except in very select countries (I believe that Uber recently lost a case in Italy ? Can't remember), there are self employed people, whose (only and very demanding) client is Uber. This means that worker protection is out of the window. There are no legal limits to it, if you want to work for three consecutive days, go for it. And having talked to many Uber/Freenow/etc drivers (because, yes, i also am brought to using it sometimes) in Paris and throughout France, many, many, many of them start their day at 6,7AM and go on until 10PM or later. These guys are not criminals, they were previously contracted taxi drivers, electricians, all kinds of jobs who just fell on a bad thing in life and had to make money another way, now leaving them mostly stuck with this job. The ones making those hours were open about what they make, on average about 2000, 2200€ per month. Which, for 16 hours a day is fucking miserable,and for a city like Paris isn't a whole lot. But actually, don't take it from me. The median take home in France for an Uber driver is 1617€ per month, with a median work time of 45 hours. Hint: it's barely above minimum wage. And, since Uber doesn't guarantee work and they're paid by the ride, many of them work on the side to guarantee they don't get fucked out of two day's salary when unlucky. https://www.journaldunet.fr/management/guide-du-management/1204812-devenir-chauffeur-uber-en-2022/ https://www.journaldunet.fr/management/guide-du-management/1...
  - mamonster 4y ago
    When people say Uber drivers, they don't mean "oh he is employed by Uber as a driver", they just mean "he drives Uber". Your 2nd paragraph above confirms my comment. Uber isn't the one who forced those shit working conditions on them, except for those who were employed as taxi drivers previously. They fell on a bad time, and Uber allows them to make money in bad conditions. Would you like them to just wait it out at pole emploi instead?
sokoloff 4y ago
App driving: simultaneously a poorly-paid exploitive arrangement and something in such demand that app companies can arbitrarily harm drivers by kicking them out. Perhaps it’s worth looking into why so many people are seeking to be drivers on the platforms?
- ohgodplsno 4y ago
  Sure, let's go, I'll start: Poverty, unemployment, lack of opportunities, industries destroyed, invisibilisation of the working class, not wanting to die out in the streets because your country has potentially no or bad social nets, destruction of said social nets forcing people to take even miserable jobs. We can go on. Here's a hint for you, since it's your turn: the amount of people doing Uber because they love driving people around a traffic-jammed city in a 300000km piece of shit car is close to zero
  - sokoloff 4y ago
    I talk to a lot of Uber drivers who seem to enjoy driving for Uber. I can imagine times in my younger life when I'd have enjoyed it as well.
  - lotsofpulp 4y ago
    How is any of that Uber’s responsibility or in their capacity to solve? Every single one of those issues is societal, which can only be solved by the people and their government.
    - ohgodplsno 4y ago
      "Lads, is it immoral to abuse the misery and despair of people to make money?"
      - lotsofpulp 4y ago
        Increasing the demand for labor increases prices for labor sellers. I do not see how it could be construed as worse than not creating that increase in demand.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

hackerlight 4y ago

Rent seeking is their goal, but that's irrelevant to whether they also create positive surplus value through the mechanisms I outlined. The economy vs. people distinction is a false dichotomy. Consumers (who are also people) can benefit from more efficient service provision and higher quality service. > It's not a "homeowner lobby" pushing for cars. It's the homeowner lobby pushing for sprawl, which indirectly leads to cars because public transport can't be properly provisioned across spawl without huge cost. Once you have sprawl enforced by law, everything else follows as a guaranteed consequence: networks of roads to connect that sprawl, and therefore cars.

ohgodplsno 4y ago
>Consumers (who are also people) can benefit from more efficient service provision and higher quality service. Consumers can also benefit from child slavery to buy their clothes ever cheaper, but we've decided as a society that it was kind of uncool to do it. But if you're willing to sacrifice a bunch of workers to drive for your comfort 16 hours a day, being paid like shit, feel free to. But pretending it creates positive surplus value while ignoring every single negative externality is laughable.
- hackerlight 4y ago
  I am not "pretending" that it creates positive surplus value. It does create surplus value through simple mechanisms. Also, it's unfair to say I am ignoring every single negative externality. All I did was challenge the questionable claim that Uber has much to do with the state of our cities being car-centric and underprovisioned by public transport, because the root cause of that situation is homeowners, not Uber. I didn't give my blessing to all of Uber's practices. > sacrifice a bunch of workers to drive for your comfort 16 hours a day, being paid like shit Putting aside the false analogy to child labor, I don't accept the framing that all low wage labor is uncool. It's a type of mindless compassion that can actually lead to anti-utilitarian outcomes in practice. Although I have no positive or negative judgment of Uber in particular regarding this point, because I haven't looked into it for Uber. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32627174 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32627174
  - ghaff 4y ago
    Many cities and their suburbs were car-centric before Uber and many will be car-centric after Uber. Perhaps somewhat fewer will feel the need to own a car (or a second car) but that doesn't really change the basic nature of transportation options. If anything, there's probably been a (little) bit more attention paid to public transit and things like bike lanes in some cities during the period Uber has existed. Many of us use Uber or Lyft once in a blue moon. My life wouldn't change one iota if Uber vanished tomorrow.

mamonster 4y ago

Well first of all Uber drivers don't have to work 16 hours of day, that's a straight up lie(in Europe). Can you work 16 hours a day? Sure, you can. But you have to be very clear about the sort of person that works 16 hours a day driving Uber: It's a person that literally cannot get hired to 99.9% of other jobs. Uber didn't cause this, but previously these people would be either on unemployment or doing crime.

ohgodplsno 4y ago
You don't seem to understand. There are no "Uber drivers". Except in very select countries (I believe that Uber recently lost a case in Italy ? Can't remember), there are self employed people, whose (only and very demanding) client is Uber. This means that worker protection is out of the window. There are no legal limits to it, if you want to work for three consecutive days, go for it. And having talked to many Uber/Freenow/etc drivers (because, yes, i also am brought to using it sometimes) in Paris and throughout France, many, many, many of them start their day at 6,7AM and go on until 10PM or later. These guys are not criminals, they were previously contracted taxi drivers, electricians, all kinds of jobs who just fell on a bad thing in life and had to make money another way, now leaving them mostly stuck with this job. The ones making those hours were open about what they make, on average about 2000, 2200€ per month. Which, for 16 hours a day is fucking miserable,and for a city like Paris isn't a whole lot. But actually, don't take it from me. The median take home in France for an Uber driver is 1617€ per month, with a median work time of 45 hours. Hint: it's barely above minimum wage. And, since Uber doesn't guarantee work and they're paid by the ride, many of them work on the side to guarantee they don't get fucked out of two day's salary when unlucky. https://www.journaldunet.fr/management/guide-du-management/1204812-devenir-chauffeur-uber-en-2022/ https://www.journaldunet.fr/management/guide-du-management/1...
- mamonster 4y ago
  When people say Uber drivers, they don't mean "oh he is employed by Uber as a driver", they just mean "he drives Uber". Your 2nd paragraph above confirms my comment. Uber isn't the one who forced those shit working conditions on them, except for those who were employed as taxi drivers previously. They fell on a bad time, and Uber allows them to make money in bad conditions. Would you like them to just wait it out at pole emploi instead?

sokoloff 4y ago

App driving: simultaneously a poorly-paid exploitive arrangement and something in such demand that app companies can arbitrarily harm drivers by kicking them out. Perhaps it’s worth looking into why so many people are seeking to be drivers on the platforms?

ohgodplsno 4y ago
Sure, let's go, I'll start: Poverty, unemployment, lack of opportunities, industries destroyed, invisibilisation of the working class, not wanting to die out in the streets because your country has potentially no or bad social nets, destruction of said social nets forcing people to take even miserable jobs. We can go on. Here's a hint for you, since it's your turn: the amount of people doing Uber because they love driving people around a traffic-jammed city in a 300000km piece of shit car is close to zero
- sokoloff 4y ago
  I talk to a lot of Uber drivers who seem to enjoy driving for Uber. I can imagine times in my younger life when I'd have enjoyed it as well.
- lotsofpulp 4y ago
  How is any of that Uber’s responsibility or in their capacity to solve? Every single one of those issues is societal, which can only be solved by the people and their government.
  - ohgodplsno 4y ago
    "Lads, is it immoral to abuse the misery and despair of people to make money?"
    - lotsofpulp 4y ago
      Increasing the demand for labor increases prices for labor sellers. I do not see how it could be construed as worse than not creating that increase in demand.