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> who are properly convicted They haven't been. Legally speaking, the remaining detainees at Guantanamo are basically victims of indefinite government kidnappi

> who are properly convicted They haven't been. Legally speaking, the remaining detainees at Guantanamo are basically victims of indefinite government kidnapping, as the US government has specifically refused to actually put them on trial because there isn't enough admissible evidence to do so.

DigiDigiorno 4y ago
Perhaps I wasn't clear, I am saying that this is bothersome because he wasn't convicted. It's my first sentence. I just don't care about the art angle.
colejohnson66 4y ago
This. If they were convicted, they’d be in a US prison, not a place that the US just indefinitely “rents” so it can be off US soil. Remember: military bases are US soil and subject to the Constitution. Except for when they’re not.
Turing_Machine 4y ago
You don't put lawful combatants "on trial". In fact, it is illegal to do so under the Geneva Conventions. Unlawful combatants, by contrast, are not entitled to a trial, and can even be executed on the spot if it seems advisable. Being a lawful combatant requires, among other things, that the combatant wear a uniform or other insignia recognizable at a distance. No uniform -> no POW rights has been the rule for a very, very long time.
- adgjlsfhk1 4y ago
  It's not like these people were found in a battlefield. Most of them were kidnapped from their homes in air raids. It's pretty hard to argue that they didn't have a legal right to trial.
  - defrost 4y ago
    A good number were proffered up for cash to the US on a bounty system and were little more than tourists from other parts of the world with few local friends or contacts and ideal patsies for whatever stories local warlords spun about them.
    - Turing_Machine 4y ago
      "Tourists" don't generally travel to active war zones.
      - arcticbull 4y ago
        Sure they do. Folks who have families who live in war zones, for example, will almost certainly fit the definition. Also, I see you've never heard of Miles Routledge, in fact I think he's in Afghanistan right now on a shooting trip with the Taliban - and his next destination is the South Sudan. [1] I myself have been to more than a handful of spicy jurisdictions. It's fine to say you wouldn't but let's not go projecting. [1] https://nypost.com/2021/08/18/uk-student-miles-routledge-flies-to-afghanistan-gets-rescued-by-british-army/ https://nypost.com/2021/08/18/uk-student-miles-routledge-fli...
        Turing_Machine 4y ago
        > Also, I see you've never heard of Miles Routledge, in fact I think he's in Afghanistan right now on a shooting trip with the Taliban If "Miles Routledge" is on a "shooting trip with the Taliban", he deserves anything he gets. And if you make a habit of visiting "spicy jurisdictions", you deserve anything you get. I say this not out of animus for you or Routledge, but if you knowingly and intentionally engage in risky behavior, you don't get to whine when something goes wrong. Edit: I smoke cigarettes, which I know to be risky behavior. If I get lung cancer, I won't be whining about it. Similarly, if Routledge's Taliban buddies decide they don't like him any more, and take a notion to saw off his head on video (a rather more likely risk than him accidentally being sent to Gitmo, IMO), that's on him.
        deleted 4y ago
- ClumsyPilot 4y ago
  > Unlawful combatants, by contrast, are not entitled to a trial, and can even be executed on the spot if it seems advisable When you write these things, imagine how they work when your simply replace names of countries involved. You are saying it's right and proper when a Russian soldier executes a Ukrainian civilian putting up resistance? Or a civilian that looks like the guy that was putting up resistance? Either you are a combatant, or you are a criminal. If you are a combatant, Geneva convention applies. If you are a criminal, system of justice applies. There isn't some sort of third subhuman category you can just execute willy-nilly. Civilians can and do take up arms to defend their homes. They do not have uniforms just for such an occasion and Geneva convention recongises that.
  - Turing_Machine 4y ago
    > If you are a combatant, Geneva convention applies. Only if you are wearing a uniform and otherwise abiding by the laws of war. Look it up. Edit: Read it yourself. https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/applic/ihl/ihl.nsf/Article.xsp?action=openDocument&documentId=2F681B08868538C2C12563CD0051AA8D https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/applic/ihl/ihl.nsf/Article.xs... Note that even resistance forces are required to wear insignia. It doesn't have to be a fancy uniform, even an armband of a specific color will work. What you cannot do is engage in hostilities while hiding among the civilian population.
    - int_19h 4y ago
      And how do we know that the people locked up in Gitmo were not wearing an armband or something similar? Oh, right, the United States government told us. How convenient. Truth is, in many cases, those people weren't combatants at all. But when you're denied due process because of the presumption of being an "illegal combatant", it's kinda hard to prove otherwise.
      - Turing_Machine 4y ago
        > And how do we know that the people locked up in Gitmo were not wearing an armband or something similar? > Oh, right, the United States government told us. How convenient. Yes, the United States government has kept them prisoner for 20 years, at great inconvenience and expense, because they just want to be meanies. You bet. > But when you're denied due process because of the presumption of being an "illegal combatant", it's kinda hard to prove otherwise. "Due process" is a feature of United States civilian law. Not international martial law.
- arcticbull 4y ago
  That's so weird then that the US was putting them up for trials. Not all of them, only some of them - and not on any particular schedule. In fact 10 of them are awaiting trial at this very moment. You can't have it both ways.
  - Turing_Machine 4y ago
    I'm not "having it both ways". Unlawful combatants are not entitled to a trial. That doesn't mean you can't give them one if you feel like it. You can basically do anything you want with them, including giving them a trial or even simply shooting them on the spot.
    - justin66 4y ago
      > You can basically do anything you want with them Unless "you" accidentally transport them to the United States like any other prisoner of the US government, in which case they are entitled to legal due process. It's a very principled system that we should all feel great about.

DigiDigiorno 4y ago

Perhaps I wasn't clear, I am saying that this is bothersome because he wasn't convicted. It's my first sentence. I just don't care about the art angle.

colejohnson66 4y ago

This. If they were convicted, they’d be in a US prison, not a place that the US just indefinitely “rents” so it can be off US soil. Remember: military bases are US soil and subject to the Constitution. Except for when they’re not.

Turing_Machine 4y ago

You don't put lawful combatants "on trial". In fact, it is illegal to do so under the Geneva Conventions. Unlawful combatants, by contrast, are not entitled to a trial, and can even be executed on the spot if it seems advisable. Being a lawful combatant requires, among other things, that the combatant wear a uniform or other insignia recognizable at a distance. No uniform -> no POW rights has been the rule for a very, very long time.

adgjlsfhk1 4y ago
It's not like these people were found in a battlefield. Most of them were kidnapped from their homes in air raids. It's pretty hard to argue that they didn't have a legal right to trial.
- defrost 4y ago
  A good number were proffered up for cash to the US on a bounty system and were little more than tourists from other parts of the world with few local friends or contacts and ideal patsies for whatever stories local warlords spun about them.
  - Turing_Machine 4y ago
    "Tourists" don't generally travel to active war zones.
    - arcticbull 4y ago
      Sure they do. Folks who have families who live in war zones, for example, will almost certainly fit the definition. Also, I see you've never heard of Miles Routledge, in fact I think he's in Afghanistan right now on a shooting trip with the Taliban - and his next destination is the South Sudan. [1] I myself have been to more than a handful of spicy jurisdictions. It's fine to say you wouldn't but let's not go projecting. [1] https://nypost.com/2021/08/18/uk-student-miles-routledge-flies-to-afghanistan-gets-rescued-by-british-army/ https://nypost.com/2021/08/18/uk-student-miles-routledge-fli...
      - Turing_Machine 4y ago
        > Also, I see you've never heard of Miles Routledge, in fact I think he's in Afghanistan right now on a shooting trip with the Taliban If "Miles Routledge" is on a "shooting trip with the Taliban", he deserves anything he gets. And if you make a habit of visiting "spicy jurisdictions", you deserve anything you get. I say this not out of animus for you or Routledge, but if you knowingly and intentionally engage in risky behavior, you don't get to whine when something goes wrong. Edit: I smoke cigarettes, which I know to be risky behavior. If I get lung cancer, I won't be whining about it. Similarly, if Routledge's Taliban buddies decide they don't like him any more, and take a notion to saw off his head on video (a rather more likely risk than him accidentally being sent to Gitmo, IMO), that's on him.
        deleted 4y ago
ClumsyPilot 4y ago
> Unlawful combatants, by contrast, are not entitled to a trial, and can even be executed on the spot if it seems advisable When you write these things, imagine how they work when your simply replace names of countries involved. You are saying it's right and proper when a Russian soldier executes a Ukrainian civilian putting up resistance? Or a civilian that looks like the guy that was putting up resistance? Either you are a combatant, or you are a criminal. If you are a combatant, Geneva convention applies. If you are a criminal, system of justice applies. There isn't some sort of third subhuman category you can just execute willy-nilly. Civilians can and do take up arms to defend their homes. They do not have uniforms just for such an occasion and Geneva convention recongises that.
- Turing_Machine 4y ago
  > If you are a combatant, Geneva convention applies. Only if you are wearing a uniform and otherwise abiding by the laws of war. Look it up. Edit: Read it yourself. https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/applic/ihl/ihl.nsf/Article.xsp?action=openDocument&documentId=2F681B08868538C2C12563CD0051AA8D https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/applic/ihl/ihl.nsf/Article.xs... Note that even resistance forces are required to wear insignia. It doesn't have to be a fancy uniform, even an armband of a specific color will work. What you cannot do is engage in hostilities while hiding among the civilian population.
  - int_19h 4y ago
    And how do we know that the people locked up in Gitmo were not wearing an armband or something similar? Oh, right, the United States government told us. How convenient. Truth is, in many cases, those people weren't combatants at all. But when you're denied due process because of the presumption of being an "illegal combatant", it's kinda hard to prove otherwise.
    - Turing_Machine 4y ago
      > And how do we know that the people locked up in Gitmo were not wearing an armband or something similar? > Oh, right, the United States government told us. How convenient. Yes, the United States government has kept them prisoner for 20 years, at great inconvenience and expense, because they just want to be meanies. You bet. > But when you're denied due process because of the presumption of being an "illegal combatant", it's kinda hard to prove otherwise. "Due process" is a feature of United States civilian law. Not international martial law.
arcticbull 4y ago
That's so weird then that the US was putting them up for trials. Not all of them, only some of them - and not on any particular schedule. In fact 10 of them are awaiting trial at this very moment. You can't have it both ways.
- Turing_Machine 4y ago
  I'm not "having it both ways". Unlawful combatants are not entitled to a trial. That doesn't mean you can't give them one if you feel like it. You can basically do anything you want with them, including giving them a trial or even simply shooting them on the spot.
  - justin66 4y ago
    > You can basically do anything you want with them Unless "you" accidentally transport them to the United States like any other prisoner of the US government, in which case they are entitled to legal due process. It's a very principled system that we should all feel great about.