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> Until the end of 2017, Guantanamo detainees were allowed to take their art with them when they were released, or give it to their lawyers to take out. > The

by kiwih 4y ago

> Until the end of 2017, Guantanamo detainees were allowed to take their art with them when they were released, or give it to their lawyers to take out. > The artists could bring their work to meetings with their lawyers, who would submit it along with their meeting notes to a "privilege team", which assesses everything leaving Guantanamo for classified material or national security issues. ... > Then in late 2017, under the Trump administration, it became clear that art was no longer being allowed out. Like lots of things in the world of Guantanamo, there was no official notification to the lawyers, no memo. Artwork was all of a sudden simply bounced back from the privilege team to the detainees. ... > Keeping his art in Guantanamo would be "the same as keeping me here", Qasim said. > "The art I made is me," he said. "If they keep my art here, my soul will stay here." Sometimes it really does seem that "the cruelty is the point".

s5300 4y ago
> Sometimes it really does seem that "the cruelty is the point". Yes, this is very much as American as apple pie, as they would say.
- jwilber 4y ago
  Cruelty is worldwide. See: Rwanda, Yemen, former Yugoslavia, Mexican cartels, ISIS, etc. for a small sample of non-US cruelty in the twenty-first century.
  - colejohnson66 4y ago
    Those countries aren’t first world, and they most certainly don’t claim to be the world superpower.
    - School-Cotton 4y ago
      Plenty of cruelty has been perpetrated by rich, Western countries too, the Holocaust for example. What’s your point? Also, whether a country is a superpower has no obvious connection to whether it commits human rights violations.
  - jfengel 4y ago
    The US would not like to think of itself in that company. But it seems that quite a few Americans see ourselves as better only because of our identity as Americans and not because of any difference in behavior.
    - School-Cotton 4y ago
      American exceptionalism goes both ways. Yes, people who see the US as uniquely moral and good are wrong. So are people who see the US as uniquely bad. It’s somewhat better than most countries in the world, and somewhat worse than some others, especially Western and Northern Europe, i.e. the most developed part of the world. If it’s not fair to compare the US to Yemen, then it’s not fair to compare it to Norway either. It simply is what it is.
      - nojonestownpls 4y ago
        Yeah, there's two ways to look at this: * The US is doing better than you might expect from an influential, powerful country, that could be abusing its power much more (but that's how empires fall, and the US has learned from the lessons of history) * The US is doing worse than you might expect from a prosperous and stable country, one that doesn't need to be driven by desperation and genuine threats to survival
      - jfengel 4y ago
        I wouldn't compare countries. But I can recognize what the OP said, that for many Americans the cruelty is the point, and I find that unpleasant all on its own. The comparison to the worst may not be apt, but I feel disgusted to be even inaptly associated with it.
        School-Cotton 4y ago
        By saying “Americans” rather than “human beings in general” you are implicitly comparing countries.
        4y ago
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - praptak 4y ago
    Unlike these countries US is supposedly a part of the democratic and free where rule of law and human rights are a thing. Also, apples and oranges. Cartel violence is a failure of the state but at least not a systemic cruelty by the state itself.
  - guano___ 4y ago
    Lots of countries bake apple pies too.
erdos4d 4y ago
> Sometimes it really does seem that "the cruelty is the point". This extends very far beyond Guantanamo. I really wonder where all these sick fucks come from. I don't remember much of a psycho vibe from classmates or work colleagues. Yet the US makes them in sufficient quantity that they seem to pop up wherever authority is. Prisons, police, military, they all seem to have endless human garbage that enjoys being cruel if they can. How has this country produced these "people" and why do they achieve positions of power instead of failure?
- JKCalhoun 4y ago
  I suspect they look for positions of power, sadly.
- swatcoder 4y ago
  Well, one answer would be that there’s no need for a “psycho vibe” on the road to heartless acts. It can look a lot more like complacency. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eichmann_in_Jerusalem#Banality_of_evil https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eichmann_in_Jerusalem#Banali...
- PuppyTailWags 4y ago
  It's important to acknowledge that there's a tendency to consider certain sets of people subhuman and deserving of anything bad thing that happens to them. Consider how America treats its poor and its sick.
  - blooalien 4y ago
    > "Consider how America treats its poor and its sick." No matter how valuable we were perceived to be or treated as (by some folk at least) prior to our illness (and subsequent "poor-ness"), or how valuable we're capable of being if only we could get one tiny shred of help or luck dealing with our medical needs, we're treated like worthless garbage and kicked to the curb to suffer miserably the moment we're no longer able to continue as a functional part of the money-producing machine for the rich and powerful. That's the truth of life on a planet where money is literally God to most people.
- 4y ago
DigiDigiorno 4y ago
I'm against prisoners in non-wartime being held without allegations or trials... I mean, Khalid was held pre-9/11... That said, I do not care about the art, or even speech, of prisoners--of which who are properly convicted, beyond speech with their attorneys and allowed contacts (whom must be able to communicate on behalf of them). The bothersome part of this is Guantanamo's non-wartime use in-and-of itself.
- crooked-v 4y ago
  > who are properly convicted They haven't been. Legally speaking, the remaining detainees at Guantanamo are basically victims of indefinite government kidnapping, as the US government has specifically refused to actually put them on trial because there isn't enough admissible evidence to do so.
  - DigiDigiorno 4y ago
    Perhaps I wasn't clear, I am saying that this is bothersome because he wasn't convicted. It's my first sentence. I just don't care about the art angle.
  - colejohnson66 4y ago
    This. If they were convicted, they’d be in a US prison, not a place that the US just indefinitely “rents” so it can be off US soil. Remember: military bases are US soil and subject to the Constitution. Except for when they’re not.
  - Turing_Machine 4y ago
    You don't put lawful combatants "on trial". In fact, it is illegal to do so under the Geneva Conventions. Unlawful combatants, by contrast, are not entitled to a trial, and can even be executed on the spot if it seems advisable. Being a lawful combatant requires, among other things, that the combatant wear a uniform or other insignia recognizable at a distance. No uniform -> no POW rights has been the rule for a very, very long time.
    - 4y ago

by kiwih 4y ago

s5300 4y ago

> Sometimes it really does seem that "the cruelty is the point". Yes, this is very much as American as apple pie, as they would say.

jwilber 4y ago
Cruelty is worldwide. See: Rwanda, Yemen, former Yugoslavia, Mexican cartels, ISIS, etc. for a small sample of non-US cruelty in the twenty-first century.
- colejohnson66 4y ago
  Those countries aren’t first world, and they most certainly don’t claim to be the world superpower.
  - School-Cotton 4y ago
    Plenty of cruelty has been perpetrated by rich, Western countries too, the Holocaust for example. What’s your point? Also, whether a country is a superpower has no obvious connection to whether it commits human rights violations.
- jfengel 4y ago
  The US would not like to think of itself in that company. But it seems that quite a few Americans see ourselves as better only because of our identity as Americans and not because of any difference in behavior.
  - School-Cotton 4y ago
    American exceptionalism goes both ways. Yes, people who see the US as uniquely moral and good are wrong. So are people who see the US as uniquely bad. It’s somewhat better than most countries in the world, and somewhat worse than some others, especially Western and Northern Europe, i.e. the most developed part of the world. If it’s not fair to compare the US to Yemen, then it’s not fair to compare it to Norway either. It simply is what it is.
    - nojonestownpls 4y ago
      Yeah, there's two ways to look at this: * The US is doing better than you might expect from an influential, powerful country, that could be abusing its power much more (but that's how empires fall, and the US has learned from the lessons of history) * The US is doing worse than you might expect from a prosperous and stable country, one that doesn't need to be driven by desperation and genuine threats to survival
    - jfengel 4y ago
      I wouldn't compare countries. But I can recognize what the OP said, that for many Americans the cruelty is the point, and I find that unpleasant all on its own. The comparison to the worst may not be apt, but I feel disgusted to be even inaptly associated with it.
      - School-Cotton 4y ago
        By saying “Americans” rather than “human beings in general” you are implicitly comparing countries.
        4y ago
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- praptak 4y ago
  Unlike these countries US is supposedly a part of the democratic and free where rule of law and human rights are a thing. Also, apples and oranges. Cartel violence is a failure of the state but at least not a systemic cruelty by the state itself.
- guano___ 4y ago
  Lots of countries bake apple pies too.

erdos4d 4y ago

> Sometimes it really does seem that "the cruelty is the point". This extends very far beyond Guantanamo. I really wonder where all these sick fucks come from. I don't remember much of a psycho vibe from classmates or work colleagues. Yet the US makes them in sufficient quantity that they seem to pop up wherever authority is. Prisons, police, military, they all seem to have endless human garbage that enjoys being cruel if they can. How has this country produced these "people" and why do they achieve positions of power instead of failure?

JKCalhoun 4y ago
I suspect they look for positions of power, sadly.
swatcoder 4y ago
Well, one answer would be that there’s no need for a “psycho vibe” on the road to heartless acts. It can look a lot more like complacency. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eichmann_in_Jerusalem#Banality_of_evil https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eichmann_in_Jerusalem#Banali...
PuppyTailWags 4y ago
It's important to acknowledge that there's a tendency to consider certain sets of people subhuman and deserving of anything bad thing that happens to them. Consider how America treats its poor and its sick.
- blooalien 4y ago
  > "Consider how America treats its poor and its sick." No matter how valuable we were perceived to be or treated as (by some folk at least) prior to our illness (and subsequent "poor-ness"), or how valuable we're capable of being if only we could get one tiny shred of help or luck dealing with our medical needs, we're treated like worthless garbage and kicked to the curb to suffer miserably the moment we're no longer able to continue as a functional part of the money-producing machine for the rich and powerful. That's the truth of life on a planet where money is literally God to most people.
4y ago

DigiDigiorno 4y ago

I'm against prisoners in non-wartime being held without allegations or trials... I mean, Khalid was held pre-9/11... That said, I do not care about the art, or even speech, of prisoners--of which who are properly convicted, beyond speech with their attorneys and allowed contacts (whom must be able to communicate on behalf of them). The bothersome part of this is Guantanamo's non-wartime use in-and-of itself.

crooked-v 4y ago
> who are properly convicted They haven't been. Legally speaking, the remaining detainees at Guantanamo are basically victims of indefinite government kidnapping, as the US government has specifically refused to actually put them on trial because there isn't enough admissible evidence to do so.
- DigiDigiorno 4y ago
  Perhaps I wasn't clear, I am saying that this is bothersome because he wasn't convicted. It's my first sentence. I just don't care about the art angle.
- colejohnson66 4y ago
  This. If they were convicted, they’d be in a US prison, not a place that the US just indefinitely “rents” so it can be off US soil. Remember: military bases are US soil and subject to the Constitution. Except for when they’re not.
- Turing_Machine 4y ago
  You don't put lawful combatants "on trial". In fact, it is illegal to do so under the Geneva Conventions. Unlawful combatants, by contrast, are not entitled to a trial, and can even be executed on the spot if it seems advisable. Being a lawful combatant requires, among other things, that the combatant wear a uniform or other insignia recognizable at a distance. No uniform -> no POW rights has been the rule for a very, very long time.
  - 4y ago