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> That video was a good start, the fine tuning argument, the fact that something cannot come out of nothing, etc. No it was terrible. In another comment I expl

by eis 4y ago

> That video was a good start, the fine tuning argument, the fact that something cannot come out of nothing, etc. No it was terrible. In another comment I explained why the fine tuning argument has been refuted because there are plenty other explanations. > The next step is that when someone claims to have been sent by God, we look at the evidence he brings forth. Prophet Muhammad Prayers of God be upon brought with him signs and performed miracles. The Quran itself is a living miracle, no one had been able to bring anything like it, and the Arabs at the time tried. Some even admitted but would not believe due to pride, this is quite well documented. Furthermore, the Quran and Hadiths talk about events that happen tens or even thousands of years later. The website I linked mentions over 100 of them. Some like the desolate bedouins competing to build tall towers or the fact that the deserts of Arabia were not only green, but would return to be rivers and meadows have only been discovered very recently. You are calling writing a book a miracle? Sometimes I am a bit speachless. Horoscopes also "predict" the future. If I make many predictions without specific times into the future and some of them turn out to be true then is that evidence that I can predict the future? No. They were just realistic enough predictions and others have not come to fruition. Next I would claim they just have not happened yet... > The behavior of secular people is quite obvious as to what is causing these issues. Many of them get rich, have everything at their disposal and think, this is it? This has happened time and time again. I'd be interested to hear your explanation. The Quran already alluded to this over 1400 years ago, even when atheism was not common (another miracle): You are confusing secular people with materialistic people. And btw. materialism is not just for secular people, religious people can be like that as well. There have been plenty of skandals in the country I currently live in with monks accumulating vasts amounts of wealth. The catholic church is one of the richest institutions in the world. You are claiming all secular people behave some way but that's just your bad point of view regarding them. Various times have you talked about western countries as if they are somehow suffering from a lot of issues in their societies. How come for example skandinavian countries again and again rank at the top of the quality of life index? Or the happiness index? I have lived in Europe and it really was not bad at all. When I watch news I also could get the impression that life really is terrible. Issue after issue. But when I stop consuming the news and just spend time with people then turns out life's pretty darn good. > Bold and false claim. Show me your proof. Islam is not Europe in the dark ages that you are talking about. Rhazes (865-925) Muhammad ibn Zakariyā Rāzī or Rhazes was a medical pioneer from Baghdad who lived between 860 and 932 AD. He was responsible for introducing western teachings, rational thought and the works of Hippocrates and Galen to the Arabic world. One of his books, Continens Liber, was a compendium of everything known about medicine. The book made him famous, but offended a Muslim priest who ordered the doctor to be beaten over the head with his own manuscript, which caused him to go blind, preventing him from future practice. > The Islamic world had the Caliphate established until WWI. Not saying that we did not make mistakes (one of the biggest was getting involved in WWI to begin with), but since then, it's been quite clear what's going on. I live a few hundred meters from a mosque. Non-muslims are afraid to say anything against them because there was a history of violence. Even police does not dare to confront when there is open illegal behavior unless it is really serious. Insurance companies refuse to provide coverage for factories in the muslim controlled areas of the country because of numerous attacks. This is in Asia btw and the US is not meddling here. I'm sure not all Muslim are like that. And I guess the muslim community you are in is peaceful. I have met some absolutely fantastic human beings which were muslims. But there are groups in Islam which are not like that. Islam itself does not guarantee a peaceful society. The same problems exist in other religions and also secular societies. > But it's not wrong according to those atheist figures, who are heavily pushing atheism. You cannot force your view on him. Once such practices get adopted and popular, you have no retort. That some atheist makes some claims does not mean it's a fact or that other people will listen to them. Atheism does not mean science. There's tons of batshit crazy atheists. I pay no attention to them. I am not forcing my view on them. There are also plenty batshit crazy theists. Same thing. Are you really suggesting that rape has a chance of getting adopted as a popular practice? You have a way too grim understanding of humanity. > Maybe, maybe not. Rape used to be common back in the day, and people were not as traumatized. Secondly, who cares about society, we're all "chemical scum" anyway. Why does it matter? Of course most were traumatized. Why weren't they? They were just too scared to speak up. This can still happen today btw. Not sure where the "chemical scum" comes from? I presented rational argument that can justify morals. Of course we care about society because we are part of society and when optimizing life in society we optimize also our own. That's why we don't eat our children and why we care for the elderly. One day we will be old and hopefully our children will care for us when we can't anymore.

al_mandi 4y ago
> You are calling writing a book a miracle? The Quran challenges anyone to bring something like it. The challenge is open. Seeminly easy right? It's gone unchallenged all these millenia. > Horoscopes also "predict" the future No they don't. The prophecies of Muhammad Prayers of God be upon him are extremely nuanced, from things like the emergence of a green Arabia, to the desolate bedouins competing to build tall towers, to naming individuals and their exact spot where they will die on the battle field, to the intricate and nuanced knowledge he had about other traditions while living in Makkah (https://youtu.be/nTsEZXx8kRg https://youtu.be/nTsEZXx8kRg). More at provingislam.com > You are confusing secular people with materialistic people Materialism as in explaining reality with only a purely materalistic tangible point of view, not monetary materialism. > The book made him famous, but offended a Muslim priest who ordered the doctor to be beaten over the head with his own manuscript, Who was that "Muslim priest"? (we don't have priests in Islam by the way). According to wikipedia (to be taken with a grain of salt): > He spent the last years of his life in his native Rey suffering from glaucoma. His eye affliction started with cataracts and ended in total blindness.[19] The cause of his blindness is uncertain. One account mentioned by Ibn Juljul attributed the cause to a blow to his head by his patron, Mansur ibn Ishaq, for failing to provide proof for his alchemy theories;[20] while Abulfaraj and Casiri claimed that the cause was a diet of beans only If this indeed happened, he would have had the right to seek retribution from a judge. You failed to show that this is a systemic problem as Europe was in the darsk ages. > Even police does not dare to confront when there is open illegal behavior unless it is really serious. What you're describing is not different from what happens in poor ghettos in America. Nothing to do with religion. I'm willing to bet that neighborhood is poor and uneducated. > This is in Asia btw and the US is not meddling here. The West has been meddling for a long long time, if not directly, then indirectly. > That some atheist makes some claims That's not any atheist. Those are the people claiming "enlightenement" and spearheading the atheist movement like Dawkins and his ilk. The difference is that with atheists, there is no moral compass or ultimate reference or authority to confirm or debate their thoughts. Whereas with a religion, we can go back to their scriptures. > Not sure where the "chemical scum" comes from? Stephen Hawking
- eis 4y ago
  > The Quran challenges anyone to bring something like it. The challenge is open. Seeminly easy right? It's gone unchallenged all these millenia. What's that supposed to prove? I know I cannot perform miracles. WTF? > No they don't. The prophecies of Muhammad Prayers of God be upon him are extremely nuanced, from things like the emergence of a green Arabia, to the desolate bedouins competing to build tall towers, to naming individuals and their exact spot where they will die on the battle field, to the intricate and nuanced knowledge he had about other traditions while living in Makkah (https://youtu.be/nTsEZXx8kRg). More at provingislam.com That's why I put the word into quotes. They don't. Same for your prophet. Please show me one prediction with condition, time and place that is in the relative near future. We both will see if it will happen as claimed or not. Not something from the past written in historical stories. Something that you and me can see with our own eyes. > Materialism as in explaining reality with only a purely materalistic tangible point of view, not monetary materialism. I have not said I am a follower of Materialism. Why do you ask me to prove something with it? > Who was that "Muslim priest"? (we don't have priests in Islam by the way). According to wikipedia (to be taken with a grain of salt): It's not my words. Maybe he was a monk. Maybe he was a "scholar". Maybe you call him something else. In the end he'd be some religious person with some kind of authority. > What you're describing is not different from what happens in poor ghettos in America. Nothing to do with religion. I'm willing to bet that neighborhood is poor and uneducated. The neighbourhood while not rich is also not poor compared to the rest of the country. Middle class is where I'd put it. I'm certainly not living in a ghetto. And strangly enough it only applies to the muslim community, not the rest in the area. I agree this happens also in ghettos. > The West has been meddling for a long long time, if not directly, then indirectly. I live here. I am pretty sure the west has zero influence over the local muslims. Who are you to tell me otherwise? I didn't even tell you the country and you claim the west is excerting influence and that this is why the fighting happens. It just shows your blind hate towards the west. > That's not any atheist. Those are the people claiming "enlightenement" and spearheading the atheist movement like Dawkins and his ilk. The difference is that with atheists, there is no moral compass or ultimate reference or authority to confirm or debate their thoughts. Whereas with a religion, we can go back to their scriptures. Why do you need to resort to derogatory words when speaking about people like Dawkins and have to inject praises when talking about your prophet? This is a pattern amongst extremists. I told you numerous times I'm not atheist so why are you trying to argue all the time against atheists? > Stephen Hawking I think you misunderstood his quote. Don't take that description is literal. All he wanted to say is we are in the grand scheme of the universe not the most important thing. Not everything a famous scientist says is to be taken literally and especially not if it's not part of a scientific claim in a paper. He was human and not a robot. Guess what? He can even be wrong! Scientists don't take all his words as gospel. My point stands. That someone said something that is wrong does not invalidate the whole concept of reasoning. Unless there was a claim that all he said was true and "honest news" like a prophet. Nobody claims that.

by eis 4y ago

al_mandi 4y ago

> You are calling writing a book a miracle? The Quran challenges anyone to bring something like it. The challenge is open. Seeminly easy right? It's gone unchallenged all these millenia. > Horoscopes also "predict" the future No they don't. The prophecies of Muhammad Prayers of God be upon him are extremely nuanced, from things like the emergence of a green Arabia, to the desolate bedouins competing to build tall towers, to naming individuals and their exact spot where they will die on the battle field, to the intricate and nuanced knowledge he had about other traditions while living in Makkah (https://youtu.be/nTsEZXx8kRg https://youtu.be/nTsEZXx8kRg). More at provingislam.com > You are confusing secular people with materialistic people Materialism as in explaining reality with only a purely materalistic tangible point of view, not monetary materialism. > The book made him famous, but offended a Muslim priest who ordered the doctor to be beaten over the head with his own manuscript, Who was that "Muslim priest"? (we don't have priests in Islam by the way). According to wikipedia (to be taken with a grain of salt): > He spent the last years of his life in his native Rey suffering from glaucoma. His eye affliction started with cataracts and ended in total blindness.[19] The cause of his blindness is uncertain. One account mentioned by Ibn Juljul attributed the cause to a blow to his head by his patron, Mansur ibn Ishaq, for failing to provide proof for his alchemy theories;[20] while Abulfaraj and Casiri claimed that the cause was a diet of beans only If this indeed happened, he would have had the right to seek retribution from a judge. You failed to show that this is a systemic problem as Europe was in the darsk ages. > Even police does not dare to confront when there is open illegal behavior unless it is really serious. What you're describing is not different from what happens in poor ghettos in America. Nothing to do with religion. I'm willing to bet that neighborhood is poor and uneducated. > This is in Asia btw and the US is not meddling here. The West has been meddling for a long long time, if not directly, then indirectly. > That some atheist makes some claims That's not any atheist. Those are the people claiming "enlightenement" and spearheading the atheist movement like Dawkins and his ilk. The difference is that with atheists, there is no moral compass or ultimate reference or authority to confirm or debate their thoughts. Whereas with a religion, we can go back to their scriptures. > Not sure where the "chemical scum" comes from? Stephen Hawking

eis 4y ago
> The Quran challenges anyone to bring something like it. The challenge is open. Seeminly easy right? It's gone unchallenged all these millenia. What's that supposed to prove? I know I cannot perform miracles. WTF? > No they don't. The prophecies of Muhammad Prayers of God be upon him are extremely nuanced, from things like the emergence of a green Arabia, to the desolate bedouins competing to build tall towers, to naming individuals and their exact spot where they will die on the battle field, to the intricate and nuanced knowledge he had about other traditions while living in Makkah (https://youtu.be/nTsEZXx8kRg). More at provingislam.com That's why I put the word into quotes. They don't. Same for your prophet. Please show me one prediction with condition, time and place that is in the relative near future. We both will see if it will happen as claimed or not. Not something from the past written in historical stories. Something that you and me can see with our own eyes. > Materialism as in explaining reality with only a purely materalistic tangible point of view, not monetary materialism. I have not said I am a follower of Materialism. Why do you ask me to prove something with it? > Who was that "Muslim priest"? (we don't have priests in Islam by the way). According to wikipedia (to be taken with a grain of salt): It's not my words. Maybe he was a monk. Maybe he was a "scholar". Maybe you call him something else. In the end he'd be some religious person with some kind of authority. > What you're describing is not different from what happens in poor ghettos in America. Nothing to do with religion. I'm willing to bet that neighborhood is poor and uneducated. The neighbourhood while not rich is also not poor compared to the rest of the country. Middle class is where I'd put it. I'm certainly not living in a ghetto. And strangly enough it only applies to the muslim community, not the rest in the area. I agree this happens also in ghettos. > The West has been meddling for a long long time, if not directly, then indirectly. I live here. I am pretty sure the west has zero influence over the local muslims. Who are you to tell me otherwise? I didn't even tell you the country and you claim the west is excerting influence and that this is why the fighting happens. It just shows your blind hate towards the west. > That's not any atheist. Those are the people claiming "enlightenement" and spearheading the atheist movement like Dawkins and his ilk. The difference is that with atheists, there is no moral compass or ultimate reference or authority to confirm or debate their thoughts. Whereas with a religion, we can go back to their scriptures. Why do you need to resort to derogatory words when speaking about people like Dawkins and have to inject praises when talking about your prophet? This is a pattern amongst extremists. I told you numerous times I'm not atheist so why are you trying to argue all the time against atheists? > Stephen Hawking I think you misunderstood his quote. Don't take that description is literal. All he wanted to say is we are in the grand scheme of the universe not the most important thing. Not everything a famous scientist says is to be taken literally and especially not if it's not part of a scientific claim in a paper. He was human and not a robot. Guess what? He can even be wrong! Scientists don't take all his words as gospel. My point stands. That someone said something that is wrong does not invalidate the whole concept of reasoning. Unless there was a claim that all he said was true and "honest news" like a prophet. Nobody claims that.