5 ms·

I don't know where you live, but I see many fewer plastic bags drifting like so many tumbleweeds since the imposition of plastic bag fees and taxes where I live

by vippy 4y ago

I don't know where you live, but I see many fewer plastic bags drifting like so many tumbleweeds since the imposition of plastic bag fees and taxes where I live.

SoftTalker 4y ago
That's likely true, but what change has been made in the total volume of plastic waste produced in the area? Possibly/probably very little. It's an example of doing something easy and visibly noticable, but ultimately inconsequential, to create the illusion of solving a problem.
- pclmulqdq 4y ago
  In Australia, when they did a plastic bag ban, the total volume of plastic waste actually went up. Instead of using flimsy grocery bags for their household trash, people were now using thicker dedicated trash bags. Those thin bags are some of the most re-used plastic out there.
  - lillecarl 4y ago
    Our dedicated trash bags are thinner than what used to be in the store for your groceries.
  - Chilko 4y ago
    Yep same in New Zealand, as much as I hate it we now buy dedicated bin bags for our kitchen bin and others as it works the best for our flat. In the past this was never an issue. However, urban plastic pollution has definitely decreased. We do often now have an excess of paper bags in our house as people tend to forget their reusable bags and we don't have as many uses for the paper ones. At least they can be recycled.
    - pclmulqdq 4y ago
      The problem is the carbon footprint. Those paper bags have the carbon footprint of 5-10 plastic bags. Re-usable bags, depending on the material, are 200-1000 plastic bags worth of carbon.
j-bos 4y ago
Me too, but I'm not aware of any fees for bags at the stores.
- metadat 4y ago
  You must not live in California..
karaterobot 4y ago
Sure, but the stated purpose of these bans was not to reduce the number of plastic bags we see, it was to reduce plastic pollution. That would make you think that plastic bags were the most important source of post-consumer plastic pollution, which they aren't — plastic packaging is. For marine microplastics ("the pacific garbage patch") the main sources are things like textiles, car tires, and of course fishing nets. The thinking seems to be "well, it would be hard to eliminate those sources, so let's make it so you don't see as many plastic garbage bags drifting around, and it'll look like we did something meaningful."
- recursive 4y ago
  It seems to have absolutely reduced urban plastic pollution. I'd call it a win.
  - mechagodzilla 4y ago
    My town banned single-use plastic bags and I went from picking 1-2 out of my yard every week to pretty much zero immediately. It definitely didn’t solve every problem, but I agree it definitely made a problem a lot better.
- 1_1xdev 4y ago
  Half measures still do _something_ They did reduce plastic pollution, as you admit. Was it the most effective regulation to pass to reduce plastic pollution by the greatest possible amount? Not at all
  - LawTalkingGuy 4y ago
    They're often counterproductive. People feel accomplished, and finished with the half-measures and they often don't bother investigating the results or the ongoing requirements.
    - SantalBlush 4y ago
      I'm not sure that this is true. Maybe you could give some evidence that this is the most common outcome.
icelancer 4y ago
This is a great example of regulations that feel good but are probably net negative. Paper bags require more energy and are worse for the environment than plastic bags on net [0][1]. Reusable bags are improperly sanitized and typically quite dirty, something that was pretty relevant in 2020 (and theoretically going forward). [2] [0]: https://ecomyths.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/scho0711buan-e-e.pdf https://ecomyths.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/scho0711buan... [1]: https://cascade.uoregon.edu/fall2012/expert/expert-article/ https://cascade.uoregon.edu/fall2012/expert/expert-article/ [2]: https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-plastic-bag-ban-backfires-11584399666 https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-plastic-bag-ban-backfires-1...
- mr_toad 4y ago
  Walking down the street a few days ago I saw someone had put out an entire trash bag full of reusable bags.

by vippy 4y ago

I don't know where you live, but I see many fewer plastic bags drifting like so many tumbleweeds since the imposition of plastic bag fees and taxes where I live.

SoftTalker 4y ago

That's likely true, but what change has been made in the total volume of plastic waste produced in the area? Possibly/probably very little. It's an example of doing something easy and visibly noticable, but ultimately inconsequential, to create the illusion of solving a problem.

pclmulqdq 4y ago
In Australia, when they did a plastic bag ban, the total volume of plastic waste actually went up. Instead of using flimsy grocery bags for their household trash, people were now using thicker dedicated trash bags. Those thin bags are some of the most re-used plastic out there.
- lillecarl 4y ago
  Our dedicated trash bags are thinner than what used to be in the store for your groceries.
- Chilko 4y ago
  Yep same in New Zealand, as much as I hate it we now buy dedicated bin bags for our kitchen bin and others as it works the best for our flat. In the past this was never an issue. However, urban plastic pollution has definitely decreased. We do often now have an excess of paper bags in our house as people tend to forget their reusable bags and we don't have as many uses for the paper ones. At least they can be recycled.
  - pclmulqdq 4y ago
    The problem is the carbon footprint. Those paper bags have the carbon footprint of 5-10 plastic bags. Re-usable bags, depending on the material, are 200-1000 plastic bags worth of carbon.

j-bos 4y ago

Me too, but I'm not aware of any fees for bags at the stores.

metadat 4y ago
You must not live in California..

karaterobot 4y ago

Sure, but the stated purpose of these bans was not to reduce the number of plastic bags we see, it was to reduce plastic pollution. That would make you think that plastic bags were the most important source of post-consumer plastic pollution, which they aren't — plastic packaging is. For marine microplastics ("the pacific garbage patch") the main sources are things like textiles, car tires, and of course fishing nets. The thinking seems to be "well, it would be hard to eliminate those sources, so let's make it so you don't see as many plastic garbage bags drifting around, and it'll look like we did something meaningful."

recursive 4y ago
It seems to have absolutely reduced urban plastic pollution. I'd call it a win.
- mechagodzilla 4y ago
  My town banned single-use plastic bags and I went from picking 1-2 out of my yard every week to pretty much zero immediately. It definitely didn’t solve every problem, but I agree it definitely made a problem a lot better.
1_1xdev 4y ago
Half measures still do _something_ They did reduce plastic pollution, as you admit. Was it the most effective regulation to pass to reduce plastic pollution by the greatest possible amount? Not at all
- LawTalkingGuy 4y ago
  They're often counterproductive. People feel accomplished, and finished with the half-measures and they often don't bother investigating the results or the ongoing requirements.
  - SantalBlush 4y ago
    I'm not sure that this is true. Maybe you could give some evidence that this is the most common outcome.

icelancer 4y ago

This is a great example of regulations that feel good but are probably net negative. Paper bags require more energy and are worse for the environment than plastic bags on net [0][1]. Reusable bags are improperly sanitized and typically quite dirty, something that was pretty relevant in 2020 (and theoretically going forward). [2] [0]: https://ecomyths.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/scho0711buan-e-e.pdf https://ecomyths.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/scho0711buan... [1]: https://cascade.uoregon.edu/fall2012/expert/expert-article/ https://cascade.uoregon.edu/fall2012/expert/expert-article/ [2]: https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-plastic-bag-ban-backfires-11584399666 https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-plastic-bag-ban-backfires-1...

mr_toad 4y ago
Walking down the street a few days ago I saw someone had put out an entire trash bag full of reusable bags.