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> Please bring a single proof of god here in your own words. I have already wasted one hour on that video which didn't lead anywhere. That video was a good sta

> Please bring a single proof of god here in your own words. I have already wasted one hour on that video which didn't lead anywhere. That video was a good start, the fine tuning argument, the fact that something cannot come out of nothing, etc. The next step is that when someone claims to have been sent by God, we look at the evidence he brings forth. Prophet Muhammad Prayers of God be upon brought with him signs and performed miracles. The Quran itself is a living miracle, no one had been able to bring anything like it, and the Arabs at the time tried. Some even admitted but would not believe due to pride, this is quite well documented. Furthermore, the Quran and Hadiths talk about events that happen tens or even thousands of years later. The website I linked mentions over 100 of them. Some like the desolate bedouins competing to build tall towers or the fact that the deserts of Arabia were not only green, but would return to be rivers and meadows have only been discovered very recently. > You might want to try apply that to your original claim that the western civilizations are declining because they are so secular. The behavior of secular people is quite obvious as to what is causing these issues. Many of them get rich, have everything at their disposal and think, this is it? This has happened time and time again. I'd be interested to hear your explanation. The Quran already alluded to this over 1400 years ago, even when atheism was not common (another miracle): > But whoever turns away from My Reminder will certainly have a miserable life -- https://quran.com/20/124 https://quran.com/20/124 > Any many go back to christians, jews or even predate our mainstream religions The difference is that with Islam, those scholars admit that it was Islam is what played a role in pushing them to pursue knowledge. It's in our religion. > Pretty sure it also persecuted people who seeked knowledge that Islam didn't like. Bold and false claim. Show me your proof. Islam is not Europe in the dark ages that you are talking about. > Or maybe that happened already before all the western influence? The Islamic world had the Caliphate established until WWI. Not saying that we did not make mistakes (one of the biggest was getting involved in WWI to begin with), but since then, it's been quite clear what's going on. > I'd argue rape being just a phenomenon is wrong But it's not wrong according to those atheist figures, who are heavily pushing atheism. You cannot force your view on him. Once such practices get adopted and popular, you have no retort. > Rape leaves the victim traumatized and less productive in society Maybe, maybe not. Rape used to be common back in the day, and people were not as traumatized. Secondly, who cares about society, we're all "chemical scum" anyway. Why does it matter? > anyone with a bit of knowledge how reproduction and genetics work can see that inbreeding increases the chance of genetic defects. So? Also, there's birth control and abortion to solve that problem.

eis 4y ago
> That video was a good start, the fine tuning argument, the fact that something cannot come out of nothing, etc. No it was terrible. In another comment I explained why the fine tuning argument has been refuted because there are plenty other explanations. > The next step is that when someone claims to have been sent by God, we look at the evidence he brings forth. Prophet Muhammad Prayers of God be upon brought with him signs and performed miracles. The Quran itself is a living miracle, no one had been able to bring anything like it, and the Arabs at the time tried. Some even admitted but would not believe due to pride, this is quite well documented. Furthermore, the Quran and Hadiths talk about events that happen tens or even thousands of years later. The website I linked mentions over 100 of them. Some like the desolate bedouins competing to build tall towers or the fact that the deserts of Arabia were not only green, but would return to be rivers and meadows have only been discovered very recently. You are calling writing a book a miracle? Sometimes I am a bit speachless. Horoscopes also "predict" the future. If I make many predictions without specific times into the future and some of them turn out to be true then is that evidence that I can predict the future? No. They were just realistic enough predictions and others have not come to fruition. Next I would claim they just have not happened yet... > The behavior of secular people is quite obvious as to what is causing these issues. Many of them get rich, have everything at their disposal and think, this is it? This has happened time and time again. I'd be interested to hear your explanation. The Quran already alluded to this over 1400 years ago, even when atheism was not common (another miracle): You are confusing secular people with materialistic people. And btw. materialism is not just for secular people, religious people can be like that as well. There have been plenty of skandals in the country I currently live in with monks accumulating vasts amounts of wealth. The catholic church is one of the richest institutions in the world. You are claiming all secular people behave some way but that's just your bad point of view regarding them. Various times have you talked about western countries as if they are somehow suffering from a lot of issues in their societies. How come for example skandinavian countries again and again rank at the top of the quality of life index? Or the happiness index? I have lived in Europe and it really was not bad at all. When I watch news I also could get the impression that life really is terrible. Issue after issue. But when I stop consuming the news and just spend time with people then turns out life's pretty darn good. > Bold and false claim. Show me your proof. Islam is not Europe in the dark ages that you are talking about. Rhazes (865-925) Muhammad ibn Zakariyā Rāzī or Rhazes was a medical pioneer from Baghdad who lived between 860 and 932 AD. He was responsible for introducing western teachings, rational thought and the works of Hippocrates and Galen to the Arabic world. One of his books, Continens Liber, was a compendium of everything known about medicine. The book made him famous, but offended a Muslim priest who ordered the doctor to be beaten over the head with his own manuscript, which caused him to go blind, preventing him from future practice. > The Islamic world had the Caliphate established until WWI. Not saying that we did not make mistakes (one of the biggest was getting involved in WWI to begin with), but since then, it's been quite clear what's going on. I live a few hundred meters from a mosque. Non-muslims are afraid to say anything against them because there was a history of violence. Even police does not dare to confront when there is open illegal behavior unless it is really serious. Insurance companies refuse to provide coverage for factories in the muslim controlled areas of the country because of numerous attacks. This is in Asia btw and the US is not meddling here. I'm sure not all Muslim are like that. And I guess the muslim community you are in is peaceful. I have met some absolutely fantastic human beings which were muslims. But there are groups in Islam which are not like that. Islam itself does not guarantee a peaceful society. The same problems exist in other religions and also secular societies. > But it's not wrong according to those atheist figures, who are heavily pushing atheism. You cannot force your view on him. Once such practices get adopted and popular, you have no retort. That some atheist makes some claims does not mean it's a fact or that other people will listen to them. Atheism does not mean science. There's tons of batshit crazy atheists. I pay no attention to them. I am not forcing my view on them. There are also plenty batshit crazy theists. Same thing. Are you really suggesting that rape has a chance of getting adopted as a popular practice? You have a way too grim understanding of humanity. > Maybe, maybe not. Rape used to be common back in the day, and people were not as traumatized. Secondly, who cares about society, we're all "chemical scum" anyway. Why does it matter? Of course most were traumatized. Why weren't they? They were just too scared to speak up. This can still happen today btw. Not sure where the "chemical scum" comes from? I presented rational argument that can justify morals. Of course we care about society because we are part of society and when optimizing life in society we optimize also our own. That's why we don't eat our children and why we care for the elderly. One day we will be old and hopefully our children will care for us when we can't anymore.

eis 4y ago

> That video was a good start, the fine tuning argument, the fact that something cannot come out of nothing, etc. No it was terrible. In another comment I explained why the fine tuning argument has been refuted because there are plenty other explanations. > The next step is that when someone claims to have been sent by God, we look at the evidence he brings forth. Prophet Muhammad Prayers of God be upon brought with him signs and performed miracles. The Quran itself is a living miracle, no one had been able to bring anything like it, and the Arabs at the time tried. Some even admitted but would not believe due to pride, this is quite well documented. Furthermore, the Quran and Hadiths talk about events that happen tens or even thousands of years later. The website I linked mentions over 100 of them. Some like the desolate bedouins competing to build tall towers or the fact that the deserts of Arabia were not only green, but would return to be rivers and meadows have only been discovered very recently. You are calling writing a book a miracle? Sometimes I am a bit speachless. Horoscopes also "predict" the future. If I make many predictions without specific times into the future and some of them turn out to be true then is that evidence that I can predict the future? No. They were just realistic enough predictions and others have not come to fruition. Next I would claim they just have not happened yet... > The behavior of secular people is quite obvious as to what is causing these issues. Many of them get rich, have everything at their disposal and think, this is it? This has happened time and time again. I'd be interested to hear your explanation. The Quran already alluded to this over 1400 years ago, even when atheism was not common (another miracle): You are confusing secular people with materialistic people. And btw. materialism is not just for secular people, religious people can be like that as well. There have been plenty of skandals in the country I currently live in with monks accumulating vasts amounts of wealth. The catholic church is one of the richest institutions in the world. You are claiming all secular people behave some way but that's just your bad point of view regarding them. Various times have you talked about western countries as if they are somehow suffering from a lot of issues in their societies. How come for example skandinavian countries again and again rank at the top of the quality of life index? Or the happiness index? I have lived in Europe and it really was not bad at all. When I watch news I also could get the impression that life really is terrible. Issue after issue. But when I stop consuming the news and just spend time with people then turns out life's pretty darn good. > Bold and false claim. Show me your proof. Islam is not Europe in the dark ages that you are talking about. Rhazes (865-925) Muhammad ibn Zakariyā Rāzī or Rhazes was a medical pioneer from Baghdad who lived between 860 and 932 AD. He was responsible for introducing western teachings, rational thought and the works of Hippocrates and Galen to the Arabic world. One of his books, Continens Liber, was a compendium of everything known about medicine. The book made him famous, but offended a Muslim priest who ordered the doctor to be beaten over the head with his own manuscript, which caused him to go blind, preventing him from future practice. > The Islamic world had the Caliphate established until WWI. Not saying that we did not make mistakes (one of the biggest was getting involved in WWI to begin with), but since then, it's been quite clear what's going on. I live a few hundred meters from a mosque. Non-muslims are afraid to say anything against them because there was a history of violence. Even police does not dare to confront when there is open illegal behavior unless it is really serious. Insurance companies refuse to provide coverage for factories in the muslim controlled areas of the country because of numerous attacks. This is in Asia btw and the US is not meddling here. I'm sure not all Muslim are like that. And I guess the muslim community you are in is peaceful. I have met some absolutely fantastic human beings which were muslims. But there are groups in Islam which are not like that. Islam itself does not guarantee a peaceful society. The same problems exist in other religions and also secular societies. > But it's not wrong according to those atheist figures, who are heavily pushing atheism. You cannot force your view on him. Once such practices get adopted and popular, you have no retort. That some atheist makes some claims does not mean it's a fact or that other people will listen to them. Atheism does not mean science. There's tons of batshit crazy atheists. I pay no attention to them. I am not forcing my view on them. There are also plenty batshit crazy theists. Same thing. Are you really suggesting that rape has a chance of getting adopted as a popular practice? You have a way too grim understanding of humanity. > Maybe, maybe not. Rape used to be common back in the day, and people were not as traumatized. Secondly, who cares about society, we're all "chemical scum" anyway. Why does it matter? Of course most were traumatized. Why weren't they? They were just too scared to speak up. This can still happen today btw. Not sure where the "chemical scum" comes from? I presented rational argument that can justify morals. Of course we care about society because we are part of society and when optimizing life in society we optimize also our own. That's why we don't eat our children and why we care for the elderly. One day we will be old and hopefully our children will care for us when we can't anymore.