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>here ere just too many unknows to be able to deliver good code on a set time schedule. So let's not try? No estimates at all then? I'm not sure how you how ca

>here ere just too many unknows to be able to deliver good code on a set time schedule. So let's not try? No estimates at all then? I'm not sure how you how can include the role of project manager in the same post when saying estimates don't work at all. By definition one of a PM's core duties is to estimate the time, cost, quality of a project. The main role of agile is not to deliver super accurate estimates anyways, but to make everyone involved in the project aware of what work needs to be done and then make sensible decisions around this. Seen this way, I think it works well. There are ways to know how much can be done in a sprint.

pdimitar 4y ago
Barely anyone applies it that way. It is just authoritarianism with a different coat of paint, at least in my 20 years long career it inevitably always was. There are no problems with giving estimates. The problems start when managers first say "don't worry if it's not accurate, just give me an estimate" and the next week say "it's not okay to give a wrong estimate". It's no use, man. I communicated with quite a few of them. They don't do anything and just panic when their manager gets unhappy and start putting pressure on their team. That's it. That's all. There's rarely any other process going on. I recently did work for two organizations that weren't that stupid and allowed leeway and had flatter structure. I liked them but they were prone to succumb to the council of elders trope where a few seniors basically decided everything and stopped listening to arguments. I'm not saying that we shouldn't try. I'm saying we should also read some history and ask people who have been through it as well. And everyone and their dog are convinced that them and only them know the secret sauce that will finally solve management (lol). Human ego is fascinating, isn't it?
- hungryforcodes 4y ago
  I do the PM role alot and sometimes the engineering manager role too and I do empathize with you, especially with regards to estimations. I've been on alot of projects where clients start with "it's ok if the estimates aren't accurate", and then the team gets nailed two weeks later at the end of the sprint when one or two tickets won't make it. Still I think the exact purpose of a good project manager is to manage the other stake holders / clients / council of elders and let the engineers do their engineering to avoid this situation. This applies to the initial startup and estimation phase as well. It's all about setting expectations...
  - pdimitar 4y ago
    Yep, agreed with you here. A lot of the more responsible roles should do management of expectations and sadly that's lost on many and isn't being done nearly enough.
WheelsAtLarge 4y ago
Yes, there needs be to a deadline since ultimately the work needs to be delivered. But scrum long term burns out the developers. It's pushing people for short term rewards. It all comes down to the PM understanding the team and knowing when to push and to understand when not to. Being a good PM is hard. Also, the team needs to work well together and be willing to deliver on time.

pdimitar 4y ago

Barely anyone applies it that way. It is just authoritarianism with a different coat of paint, at least in my 20 years long career it inevitably always was. There are no problems with giving estimates. The problems start when managers first say "don't worry if it's not accurate, just give me an estimate" and the next week say "it's not okay to give a wrong estimate". It's no use, man. I communicated with quite a few of them. They don't do anything and just panic when their manager gets unhappy and start putting pressure on their team. That's it. That's all. There's rarely any other process going on. I recently did work for two organizations that weren't that stupid and allowed leeway and had flatter structure. I liked them but they were prone to succumb to the council of elders trope where a few seniors basically decided everything and stopped listening to arguments. I'm not saying that we shouldn't try. I'm saying we should also read some history and ask people who have been through it as well. And everyone and their dog are convinced that them and only them know the secret sauce that will finally solve management (lol). Human ego is fascinating, isn't it?

hungryforcodes 4y ago
I do the PM role alot and sometimes the engineering manager role too and I do empathize with you, especially with regards to estimations. I've been on alot of projects where clients start with "it's ok if the estimates aren't accurate", and then the team gets nailed two weeks later at the end of the sprint when one or two tickets won't make it. Still I think the exact purpose of a good project manager is to manage the other stake holders / clients / council of elders and let the engineers do their engineering to avoid this situation. This applies to the initial startup and estimation phase as well. It's all about setting expectations...
- pdimitar 4y ago
  Yep, agreed with you here. A lot of the more responsible roles should do management of expectations and sadly that's lost on many and isn't being done nearly enough.

WheelsAtLarge 4y ago

Yes, there needs be to a deadline since ultimately the work needs to be delivered. But scrum long term burns out the developers. It's pushing people for short term rewards. It all comes down to the PM understanding the team and knowing when to push and to understand when not to. Being a good PM is hard. Also, the team needs to work well together and be willing to deliver on time.