3 ms·

> String players have no choice but to learn equal temperament as the vast majority of the time they're playing alongside other musicians, and it's what modern

> String players have no choice but to learn equal temperament as the vast majority of the time they're playing alongside other musicians, and it's what modern ears (since the late 18th century) expect to hear. It'd be a rare violinist these days that could actually accurately play something in any sort of intonation based entirely on just intervals. That's not true at all. A lot of string players learn to play in orchestras or chamber style, which means they're only playing with other stringed instruments, and they absolutely are taught dynamic tuning by ear, which uses just intervals.

jnwatson 4y ago
Exactly. The only fixed-pitch instruments in an orchestra are the piano and the percussion section. It was routine even in my high school brass section to pitch down the major 3rds.
- wizofaus 4y ago
  Having briefly learned a few wind instruments (flute and horn primarily) I'm aware pitch adjustment is possible but the keys/valves are designed around equal temperament - for anything other than slower sustained passages (or potentially repeated notes) constantly trying to approximate just intervals doesn't seem sustainable. And again, absolutely not what I would want or except to hear as a composer.
  - palimpsests 4y ago
    skilled instrumentalists are quite capable of consistently reproducing intervals in a given tuning system. particularly thirds in just intonation. it’s not an approximation. it’s one of the reasons we spend so much time learning ear training in conservatory.
    - wizofaus 4y ago
      I argue all just about all intonation is some sort of approximation, unless you're playing an electronic instrument that doesn't allow pitch adjustments! And it does surprise me how little my ears seem to notice despite having zero tolerance for people singing even slightly off-key.
      - palimpsests 4y ago
        relative to mathematical perfection, of course it’s all an approximation when a human instrumentalist is involved. that’s the nature of our physical reality. the most important element here is how it sounds to our ears. not how closely it tracks to an equation.
wizofaus 4y ago
I did say "based entirely on just intervals". But as a composer I most certainly wouldn't want string players choosing their temperament based on whether there happened to be other instruments in the ensemble capable of the same. And it sounds off for music that doesn't largely sit in a single key signature anyway, which is arguably most music composed since Beethoven. Though I did just read a classic example of where just intervals are often used is the opening of Das Rheingold, that sits on an E flat (not D#!) major chord for several minutes.
- chimeracoder 4y ago
  > But as a composer I most certainly wouldn't want string players choosing their temperament based on whether there happened to be other instruments in the ensemble capable of the same. This is a weird way of looking at it. String players aren't sitting there consciously thinking of their tuning as they play - they're doing it by ear in real-time. The tuning they use will be the one that best harmonizes with the other notes being played at that moment. > And it sounds off for music that doesn't largely sit in a single key signature anyway, That's actually where the ability to adapt tuning dynamically is the most powerful - it allows you to be in tune relative to other pitches being played in that moment, not just in tune relative to some absolute benchmark that nobody is going to be able to hear anyway (because almost nobody has perfect absolute pitch).
  - wizofaus 4y ago
    Sure, I imagine it's not dissimilar to how we sing as choristers. But I've played on keyboards tuned to exact just temperament in a particular key and it starts to sound very weird very quickly the moment you veer off the reference key signature.
    - chimeracoder 4y ago
      > But I've played on keyboards tuned to exact just temperament in a particular key Well, that's your problem. You're using a keyboard, which doesn't permit you to harmonize dynamically the way an unfretted string instrument does. Even within a particular key, the pitch that sounds the best for a particular note will depend on which other notes within that key you're attempting to harmonize with. A keyboard can't do that.

jnwatson 4y ago

Exactly. The only fixed-pitch instruments in an orchestra are the piano and the percussion section. It was routine even in my high school brass section to pitch down the major 3rds.

wizofaus 4y ago
Having briefly learned a few wind instruments (flute and horn primarily) I'm aware pitch adjustment is possible but the keys/valves are designed around equal temperament - for anything other than slower sustained passages (or potentially repeated notes) constantly trying to approximate just intervals doesn't seem sustainable. And again, absolutely not what I would want or except to hear as a composer.
- palimpsests 4y ago
  skilled instrumentalists are quite capable of consistently reproducing intervals in a given tuning system. particularly thirds in just intonation. it’s not an approximation. it’s one of the reasons we spend so much time learning ear training in conservatory.
  - wizofaus 4y ago
    I argue all just about all intonation is some sort of approximation, unless you're playing an electronic instrument that doesn't allow pitch adjustments! And it does surprise me how little my ears seem to notice despite having zero tolerance for people singing even slightly off-key.
    - palimpsests 4y ago
      relative to mathematical perfection, of course it’s all an approximation when a human instrumentalist is involved. that’s the nature of our physical reality. the most important element here is how it sounds to our ears. not how closely it tracks to an equation.

wizofaus 4y ago

I did say "based entirely on just intervals". But as a composer I most certainly wouldn't want string players choosing their temperament based on whether there happened to be other instruments in the ensemble capable of the same. And it sounds off for music that doesn't largely sit in a single key signature anyway, which is arguably most music composed since Beethoven. Though I did just read a classic example of where just intervals are often used is the opening of Das Rheingold, that sits on an E flat (not D#!) major chord for several minutes.

chimeracoder 4y ago
> But as a composer I most certainly wouldn't want string players choosing their temperament based on whether there happened to be other instruments in the ensemble capable of the same. This is a weird way of looking at it. String players aren't sitting there consciously thinking of their tuning as they play - they're doing it by ear in real-time. The tuning they use will be the one that best harmonizes with the other notes being played at that moment. > And it sounds off for music that doesn't largely sit in a single key signature anyway, That's actually where the ability to adapt tuning dynamically is the most powerful - it allows you to be in tune relative to other pitches being played in that moment, not just in tune relative to some absolute benchmark that nobody is going to be able to hear anyway (because almost nobody has perfect absolute pitch).
- wizofaus 4y ago
  Sure, I imagine it's not dissimilar to how we sing as choristers. But I've played on keyboards tuned to exact just temperament in a particular key and it starts to sound very weird very quickly the moment you veer off the reference key signature.
  - chimeracoder 4y ago
    > But I've played on keyboards tuned to exact just temperament in a particular key Well, that's your problem. You're using a keyboard, which doesn't permit you to harmonize dynamically the way an unfretted string instrument does. Even within a particular key, the pitch that sounds the best for a particular note will depend on which other notes within that key you're attempting to harmonize with. A keyboard can't do that.