4 ms·

Lielow: Playable chess-like game that uses only checkers

49 points by amichail 4y ago

SamBam 4y ago
Sounds interesting, although the initial state doesn't seem to be described by the rules. How many stacks do you start with? Can you gain new stacks?
- shagie 4y ago
  The initial state is 8 checkers in the pawn position of a chess board. You cannot gain additional stacks. (Some additional info on the game and its mechanics : https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/2720024/lielow-wartime-tale-machiavellian-usurpership https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/2720024/lielow-wartime-tale... )
civilian 4y ago
It's not loading for me :-/ the game sounds interesting from the rules listed. details.php?keyword=Lielow:1333 Uncaught TypeError: Cannot set properties of null (setting 'onclick') at addPopups (details.php?keyword=Lielow:1333:28) at details.php?keyword=Lielow:1706:9 addPopups @ details.php?keyword=Lielow:1333 (anonymous) @ details.php?keyword=Lielow:1706 mapEventListeners.js:1 Uncaught TypeError: Cannot read properties of null (reading 'addEventListener') at mapEventListeners.js:1:43
shagie 4y ago
The BGG entry for the game - https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/349408/lielow https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/349408/lielow
clintonc 4y ago
> Note: In this implementation, jumping off the board is only possible if the stack can reach exactly 1 row or column beyond the perimeter. But it seems to always be the case that it is possible to jump off the board when a stack is big enough. Please let Michael know if you encounter a scenario where a piece is stuck. This should not be allowed according to the rules of the game. True. Suppose you moved from A to B, and your stack just became 8 tall. Then you must have jumped from one edge of the board to the other; if you jump back the way you came, you'll land on the "margin" outside of the board. Also, there are no other legal moves besides jumping onto the margin; in particular, you can never become 9 tall. Repeat for smaller heights: If you are height N, but no other moves land on the board, then moving back in the direction the piece last came from will put it on the margin.
- empty-theory 4y ago
  I was both wrong and confused when I wrote that. It is not always possible to jump off the board in this implementation when a stack is big enough to reach outside the board. A very simple counterexample is A2-A1. That puts a 2-stack in the corner. Such a stack has the range to jump off, but cannot be removed in the current Ludii implementation. That's a violation of the rules of the game. But I confused this with a stack being completely stuck, i.e. not having any moves, which is a different question. That's the situation I vaguely saw was impossible.
Taikonerd 4y ago
Cool! Speaking of "complex games that can be played with only checkers," I want to give a shout-out to Breakthrough: [0] All your pieces are the same, and move sort of like pawns in chess. (Slightly different.) The first player to move a piece all the way across the board wins. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breakthrough_(board_game) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breakthrough_(board_game)
mtlmtlmtlmtl 4y ago
I love chess/checkers variants. Here's a fun one that was invented(though probably not the first) by someone at my chess club. They called it ludo chess. Normal chess rules, except: two pieces can stack on the same square, and subsequently move together with the combined power of both pieces. You can also just move one of them, splitting the stack. We've had a lot of fun playing this at our club over a few beers. One of my favourite strategies is sticking your king on a knight so it can jump out of mating nets. And carrying a pawn with your rook to create a dangerous passed pawn within a couple moves.
- failrate 4y ago
  I have seen a commercially produced variant of this with pieces that can be clasped together.
  - retzkek 4y ago
    That was probably Paco Ŝako, aka Peace Chess. Only similar insofar as two pieces can share a space, otherwise quite different - there's no captures, rather pieces embrace, with the goal to embrace the opponent's king. https://pacosako.com/en https://pacosako.com/en
  - fsiefken 4y ago
    hi failrate, you might have seen paco sako chess, but that seems to be a joining of black and white instead of two black or two white pieces (the latter being a bit similar to the musquito mechanism in hive, a hexagonal chess like game). https://www.sasktoday.ca/central/opinion/the-meeple-guild-new-chess-variant-looked-better-than-it-was-4120734 https://www.sasktoday.ca/central/opinion/the-meeple-guild-ne...
    - failrate 4y ago
      I believe you are correct. I wonder if you could play both games with the same set.
      - 4y ago
bravura 4y ago
What does "Passing is not allowed." mean?
- failrate 4y ago
  You have to take your turn.
cestith 4y ago
See also: - https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/349408/lielow https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/349408/lielow - https://github.com/Quuxplusone/Lielow https://github.com/Quuxplusone/Lielow. (which includes a chance to play against AI) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YccEDjAe7vE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YccEDjAe7vE (video by Alek Erickson, presumably the cocreator)
IIAOPSW 4y ago
Checkers is a playable chess-like game that uses only checkers.
pavon 4y ago
How many pieces do you typically need to play this game? The rules place no explicit limit in the size of the stack, although if a stack gets to be 8 pieces high, then it can't do anything other than leave the board, which puts an obvious theoretical maximum at no more than 64 pieces per side (4 checkers sets). I wouldn't be surprised if the actual theoretical maximum is lower than that.
- skulk 4y ago
  https://ludii.games/lud/games/Lielow.lud https://ludii.games/lud/games/Lielow.lud deciphered with https://ludii.games/downloads/LudiiGameLogicGuide.pdf https://ludii.games/downloads/LudiiGameLogicGuide.pdf (equipment { (board (square 10)) (piece "Disc" Each) }) The board is 10x10 (start { (place "Disc1" (difference (difference (expand (sites Bottom) steps:2) (expand (sites Bottom) steps:1) ) (sites Outer) ) ) (place "Disc2" (difference (difference (expand (sites Top) steps:2) (expand (sites Top) steps:1) ) (sites Outer) ) ) }) One row of pieces on the top, and one row of pieces on the bottom (?). I wonder if parametric definition (like a list comprehension) would be clearer... Interesting approach nevertheless.
  - shagie 4y ago
    The 10x10 aspect of it appears to be because there's an invisible outer ring of "if your piece moves here, it is removed from the game" which wouldn't be possible with an 8x8 board that doesn't have an "outside". If you play the game, you'll see an 8x8 board.
  - empty-theory 4y ago
    I wrote that .lud-file. There are 3 known issues with it: (1) The identity of a player's king is only updated after their own turn, not after each player's turn. (2) It is not always possible to suicide a stack that has the proper reach, because it might overshoot the mark (my code requires it to land exactly 1 step outside the board). (3) Suicided pieces are not removed if the resulting state has no uniquely talles stack of the current player's color. All of these issues are fixed in a new .lud-file written by someone else. (I usually write my own, but this is the second time the same guy has come to my rescue.)

49 points by amichail 4y ago

Sounds interesting, although the initial state doesn't seem to be described by the rules. How many stacks do you start with? Can you gain new stacks?

shagie 4y ago
The initial state is 8 checkers in the pawn position of a chess board. You cannot gain additional stacks. (Some additional info on the game and its mechanics : https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/2720024/lielow-wartime-tale-machiavellian-usurpership https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/2720024/lielow-wartime-tale... )

civilian 4y ago

It's not loading for me :-/ the game sounds interesting from the rules listed. details.php?keyword=Lielow:1333 Uncaught TypeError: Cannot set properties of null (setting 'onclick') at addPopups (details.php?keyword=Lielow:1333:28) at details.php?keyword=Lielow:1706:9 addPopups @ details.php?keyword=Lielow:1333 (anonymous) @ details.php?keyword=Lielow:1706 mapEventListeners.js:1 Uncaught TypeError: Cannot read properties of null (reading 'addEventListener') at mapEventListeners.js:1:43

shagie 4y ago

The BGG entry for the game - https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/349408/lielow https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/349408/lielow

clintonc 4y ago

> Note: In this implementation, jumping off the board is only possible if the stack can reach exactly 1 row or column beyond the perimeter. But it seems to always be the case that it is possible to jump off the board when a stack is big enough. Please let Michael know if you encounter a scenario where a piece is stuck. This should not be allowed according to the rules of the game. True. Suppose you moved from A to B, and your stack just became 8 tall. Then you must have jumped from one edge of the board to the other; if you jump back the way you came, you'll land on the "margin" outside of the board. Also, there are no other legal moves besides jumping onto the margin; in particular, you can never become 9 tall. Repeat for smaller heights: If you are height N, but no other moves land on the board, then moving back in the direction the piece last came from will put it on the margin.

empty-theory 4y ago
I was both wrong and confused when I wrote that. It is not always possible to jump off the board in this implementation when a stack is big enough to reach outside the board. A very simple counterexample is A2-A1. That puts a 2-stack in the corner. Such a stack has the range to jump off, but cannot be removed in the current Ludii implementation. That's a violation of the rules of the game. But I confused this with a stack being completely stuck, i.e. not having any moves, which is a different question. That's the situation I vaguely saw was impossible.

Taikonerd 4y ago

Cool! Speaking of "complex games that can be played with only checkers," I want to give a shout-out to Breakthrough: [0] All your pieces are the same, and move sort of like pawns in chess. (Slightly different.) The first player to move a piece all the way across the board wins. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breakthrough_(board_game) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breakthrough_(board_game)

mtlmtlmtlmtl 4y ago

I love chess/checkers variants. Here's a fun one that was invented(though probably not the first) by someone at my chess club. They called it ludo chess. Normal chess rules, except: two pieces can stack on the same square, and subsequently move together with the combined power of both pieces. You can also just move one of them, splitting the stack. We've had a lot of fun playing this at our club over a few beers. One of my favourite strategies is sticking your king on a knight so it can jump out of mating nets. And carrying a pawn with your rook to create a dangerous passed pawn within a couple moves.

failrate 4y ago
I have seen a commercially produced variant of this with pieces that can be clasped together.
- retzkek 4y ago
  That was probably Paco Ŝako, aka Peace Chess. Only similar insofar as two pieces can share a space, otherwise quite different - there's no captures, rather pieces embrace, with the goal to embrace the opponent's king. https://pacosako.com/en https://pacosako.com/en
- fsiefken 4y ago
  hi failrate, you might have seen paco sako chess, but that seems to be a joining of black and white instead of two black or two white pieces (the latter being a bit similar to the musquito mechanism in hive, a hexagonal chess like game). https://www.sasktoday.ca/central/opinion/the-meeple-guild-new-chess-variant-looked-better-than-it-was-4120734 https://www.sasktoday.ca/central/opinion/the-meeple-guild-ne...
  - failrate 4y ago
    I believe you are correct. I wonder if you could play both games with the same set.
    - 4y ago

bravura 4y ago

What does "Passing is not allowed." mean?

failrate 4y ago
You have to take your turn.

cestith 4y ago

See also: - https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/349408/lielow https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/349408/lielow - https://github.com/Quuxplusone/Lielow https://github.com/Quuxplusone/Lielow. (which includes a chance to play against AI) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YccEDjAe7vE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YccEDjAe7vE (video by Alek Erickson, presumably the cocreator)

IIAOPSW 4y ago

Checkers is a playable chess-like game that uses only checkers.

pavon 4y ago

How many pieces do you typically need to play this game? The rules place no explicit limit in the size of the stack, although if a stack gets to be 8 pieces high, then it can't do anything other than leave the board, which puts an obvious theoretical maximum at no more than 64 pieces per side (4 checkers sets). I wouldn't be surprised if the actual theoretical maximum is lower than that.

skulk 4y ago
https://ludii.games/lud/games/Lielow.lud https://ludii.games/lud/games/Lielow.lud deciphered with https://ludii.games/downloads/LudiiGameLogicGuide.pdf https://ludii.games/downloads/LudiiGameLogicGuide.pdf (equipment { (board (square 10)) (piece "Disc" Each) }) The board is 10x10 (start { (place "Disc1" (difference (difference (expand (sites Bottom) steps:2) (expand (sites Bottom) steps:1) ) (sites Outer) ) ) (place "Disc2" (difference (difference (expand (sites Top) steps:2) (expand (sites Top) steps:1) ) (sites Outer) ) ) }) One row of pieces on the top, and one row of pieces on the bottom (?). I wonder if parametric definition (like a list comprehension) would be clearer... Interesting approach nevertheless.
- shagie 4y ago
  The 10x10 aspect of it appears to be because there's an invisible outer ring of "if your piece moves here, it is removed from the game" which wouldn't be possible with an 8x8 board that doesn't have an "outside". If you play the game, you'll see an 8x8 board.
- empty-theory 4y ago
  I wrote that .lud-file. There are 3 known issues with it: (1) The identity of a player's king is only updated after their own turn, not after each player's turn. (2) It is not always possible to suicide a stack that has the proper reach, because it might overshoot the mark (my code requires it to land exactly 1 step outside the board). (3) Suicided pieces are not removed if the resulting state has no uniquely talles stack of the current player's color. All of these issues are fixed in a new .lud-file written by someone else. (I usually write my own, but this is the second time the same guy has come to my rescue.)