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> Physical instruments can't be perfectly in tune even within themselves. No, but they can sidestep the need to be perfectly in tune within themselves by allow

> Physical instruments can't be perfectly in tune even within themselves. No, but they can sidestep the need to be perfectly in tune within themselves by allowing the player to produce notes unbounded by discrete steps or subdivisions thereof, e.g. fretless string instruments and trombones.

criddell 4y ago
Why does fretless matter? Doesn’t string bending also let you play off-note tones?
- chucksmash 4y ago
  Having to bend up to a given note each time you need to hit it will be slower and less precise. Generally the bend is done after the fretted note is struck as well. I guess it would be possible to always pre-bend to a given alternate note if you wanted a constant tone, but it definitely seems like working against the grain of the tool versus just using a fretless instrument.
  - paulmooreparks 4y ago
    Eddie Van Halen was known to do this, though he was admittedly a freak of nature. He tuned the B string a few cents flat so that barre chords played up the neck would sound more in tune. If he needed to play, for example, a D chord in first position, he'd bend the D fretted on the B string slightly sharp.
    - criddell 4y ago
      There’s a video of a Van Halen concert where the synth track for Jump was played back at the wrong bitrate. Eddie worked furiously to find it on the guitar but couldn’t. It’s pretty wild to watch.
- coldtea 4y ago
  Because in fretless it can be done all the time - and picking the note manually by exact finger placement is done all the time. In fretted instruments, bending is done for effect, not for adjusting each and every note.
  - criddell 4y ago
    There are some players of guitars with a scalloped fretboard who do so to experiment with tempered tunings. It's definitely uncommon, but it's not unheard of.
coldtea 4y ago
>by allowing the player to produce notes unbounded by discrete steps or subdivisions thereof, e.g. fretless string instruments and trombones Then you have the problem that the player will himself be off, unwillingly, most of the time. Often more than the offsets of 12-tet to the "ideal" note.
- squeaky-clean 4y ago
  > Often more than the offsets of 12-tet to the "ideal" note. Any proof to this? 12 tet can vary by 15 cents from just intonation. Even an amateur musician can hear how out-of-tune a 15 cent difference is.
  - coldtea 4y ago
    >Even an amateur musician can hear how out-of-tune a 15 cent difference is. Judging from all kinds of out-of-tune players in live settings, and youtube videos (especially guitar, which I follow a lot) I kind of doubt that...
    - squeaky-clean 4y ago
      15 cents is huge. It's 15% of the way to the next note. Even 5 cents sounds noticeably out of tune. Trained musicians can easily tune to less than 2 cents without using tricks like beating to get even more accurate tuning. Guitarists may be out of tune, but chances are more likely you're hearing a poorly intonated guitar. You can tune the open strings perfectly, but if your string scale-length deviates from what your fretboard expects, you'll have notes that progressively get more out of tune the further down the neck you play. You can't correct this with tuning, you need to adjust the tensions in your bridge saddles, and most amateur guitarists are afraid to do this. Also you mention live settings, it depends on how big the group is I guess, but at smaller venues and smaller bands the stage monitoring is often so bad you can't hear your own guitar.
    - yellowapple 4y ago
      Guitars being out of tune happens because of the frets, not some lack thereof; most people tune each string with a tuner and/or by comparing to other strings, which means that some notes will be in tune and others will be very out of tune. This is one of many possible motivations (arguably the primary one besides ease of fingering) for tunings other than the "standard" EADGBE tuning: to change which subset of possible chords are in tune. This is arguably a non-issue for fretless guitars, but those take more skill to play (and I'd imagine getting some chords perfectly in tune would entail nigh-impossible hand contortions even without there being frets involved).

criddell 4y ago

Why does fretless matter? Doesn’t string bending also let you play off-note tones?

chucksmash 4y ago
Having to bend up to a given note each time you need to hit it will be slower and less precise. Generally the bend is done after the fretted note is struck as well. I guess it would be possible to always pre-bend to a given alternate note if you wanted a constant tone, but it definitely seems like working against the grain of the tool versus just using a fretless instrument.
- paulmooreparks 4y ago
  Eddie Van Halen was known to do this, though he was admittedly a freak of nature. He tuned the B string a few cents flat so that barre chords played up the neck would sound more in tune. If he needed to play, for example, a D chord in first position, he'd bend the D fretted on the B string slightly sharp.
  - criddell 4y ago
    There’s a video of a Van Halen concert where the synth track for Jump was played back at the wrong bitrate. Eddie worked furiously to find it on the guitar but couldn’t. It’s pretty wild to watch.
coldtea 4y ago
Because in fretless it can be done all the time - and picking the note manually by exact finger placement is done all the time. In fretted instruments, bending is done for effect, not for adjusting each and every note.
- criddell 4y ago
  There are some players of guitars with a scalloped fretboard who do so to experiment with tempered tunings. It's definitely uncommon, but it's not unheard of.

coldtea 4y ago

>by allowing the player to produce notes unbounded by discrete steps or subdivisions thereof, e.g. fretless string instruments and trombones Then you have the problem that the player will himself be off, unwillingly, most of the time. Often more than the offsets of 12-tet to the "ideal" note.

squeaky-clean 4y ago
> Often more than the offsets of 12-tet to the "ideal" note. Any proof to this? 12 tet can vary by 15 cents from just intonation. Even an amateur musician can hear how out-of-tune a 15 cent difference is.
- coldtea 4y ago
  >Even an amateur musician can hear how out-of-tune a 15 cent difference is. Judging from all kinds of out-of-tune players in live settings, and youtube videos (especially guitar, which I follow a lot) I kind of doubt that...
  - squeaky-clean 4y ago
    15 cents is huge. It's 15% of the way to the next note. Even 5 cents sounds noticeably out of tune. Trained musicians can easily tune to less than 2 cents without using tricks like beating to get even more accurate tuning. Guitarists may be out of tune, but chances are more likely you're hearing a poorly intonated guitar. You can tune the open strings perfectly, but if your string scale-length deviates from what your fretboard expects, you'll have notes that progressively get more out of tune the further down the neck you play. You can't correct this with tuning, you need to adjust the tensions in your bridge saddles, and most amateur guitarists are afraid to do this. Also you mention live settings, it depends on how big the group is I guess, but at smaller venues and smaller bands the stage monitoring is often so bad you can't hear your own guitar.
  - yellowapple 4y ago
    Guitars being out of tune happens because of the frets, not some lack thereof; most people tune each string with a tuner and/or by comparing to other strings, which means that some notes will be in tune and others will be very out of tune. This is one of many possible motivations (arguably the primary one besides ease of fingering) for tunings other than the "standard" EADGBE tuning: to change which subset of possible chords are in tune. This is arguably a non-issue for fretless guitars, but those take more skill to play (and I'd imagine getting some chords perfectly in tune would entail nigh-impossible hand contortions even without there being frets involved).