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Out of interest, is this still the same when a violin is playing alongside fretted instruments? Wouldn't they sound out of tune in that case?

wumpus 4y ago
Some players of fretted instruments move the frets to match individual pieces of music. In modern rock music, some musicians will change guitars every song to have sweeter chords depending on the particular chords in that song.
- coldtea 4y ago
  Which "modern rock musicians" do that? It surely is not widespread in rock. Rock musicians change guitars (in a live or even studio situation) mostly to get a different sound or a different tuning (like going from "standard" to an open tuning). Not for microtuning adjustments, or because they have moved the frets to match an individual piece. Some prog musicians might do it, but it surely is not a "rock" custom. In arabic music, on the other hand, or renaissance music, and other genres, it is, and instruments there often have movable frets.
  - gromgull 4y ago
    Not moving the frets, but changing guitar: https://youtu.be/Daw93bRHe4Y https://youtu.be/Daw93bRHe4Y
beardyw 4y ago
Physical instruments can't be perfectly in tune even within themselves. Perfectly in tune is the preserve of electronic instruments. Even so I have a software synth that can adjust its own tuning within a chord to provide a more pleasing sound.
- mrob 4y ago
  A tonewheel organ could be amplified acoustically, e.g. by physically touching an appropriately sized resonant chamber to the wheel when you press a key. The exact size of the resonator does not matter because it's mode locked to the wheel, which turns at a speed determined only by the gear train. Tonewheel organ gears traditionally do not have perfectly accurate tuning, but there's no reason they couldn't be built to match any tuning system within the limits of human hearing (at greater cost and complexity).
- timc3 4y ago
  Early electronic instruments, particularly before the 1980s had tuning all over the place, and you would have to wait 30 minutes to get anything resembling stability, even then nothing was guaranteed. Think it would be possible to mockup some really interesting tunings/temperaments in BitWigs grid or Max4Live.
- yellowapple 4y ago
  > Physical instruments can't be perfectly in tune even within themselves. No, but they can sidestep the need to be perfectly in tune within themselves by allowing the player to produce notes unbounded by discrete steps or subdivisions thereof, e.g. fretless string instruments and trombones.
  - criddell 4y ago
    Why does fretless matter? Doesn’t string bending also let you play off-note tones?
    - chucksmash 4y ago
      Having to bend up to a given note each time you need to hit it will be slower and less precise. Generally the bend is done after the fretted note is struck as well. I guess it would be possible to always pre-bend to a given alternate note if you wanted a constant tone, but it definitely seems like working against the grain of the tool versus just using a fretless instrument.
      - paulmooreparks 4y ago
        Eddie Van Halen was known to do this, though he was admittedly a freak of nature. He tuned the B string a few cents flat so that barre chords played up the neck would sound more in tune. If he needed to play, for example, a D chord in first position, he'd bend the D fretted on the B string slightly sharp.
        criddell 4y ago
        There’s a video of a Van Halen concert where the synth track for Jump was played back at the wrong bitrate. Eddie worked furiously to find it on the guitar but couldn’t. It’s pretty wild to watch.
    - coldtea 4y ago
      Because in fretless it can be done all the time - and picking the note manually by exact finger placement is done all the time. In fretted instruments, bending is done for effect, not for adjusting each and every note.
lucas_codes 4y ago
Yes and no, a violinist has to use their taste and experience to match the intonation of the fretted instrument in some cases (for example, when playing the exact same note) and not other cases (for example, perhaps a piano plays a C and a G and violin plays an E, the violinist will likely want to play a lower E than the piano would to get the exact ratios described in the article.)
Arathorn 4y ago
You definitely risk a clash between a well-tempered instrument (like a piano) and a violin, given the piano is just one big compromise whereas the violin can hit the theoretically correct note. Either the violin (typically subconsciously) tweaks the tuning of a given note to match the piano, or the note is too short to notice (given the main way to notice the difference is by spotting pulses, or “beats”, which is the phase difference between the two notes - which could be measured in seconds if it’s <1Hz difference). Khachaturian loved playing with enharmonics - the violin concerto has runs where you get D# and Eb (or similar) in different parts of the same run - or worse, two different Bb’s, as the run implicitly moves through different keys as it goes. This is then made particularly fun in the lead-up to the cadenza, where the violin duels with the clarinet, and to sound correct, you have to explicitly coordinate on which key the various phrases are actually playing in (given it effectively switches implicit key faster than the explicit key signature). From memory, you end up with the clarinet deliberately playing very different enharmonics to the violin, giving it an incredibly otherworldly feeling. edit: to clarify, you literally have to say: “so play this Bb as the Bb in a G-minor scale, and this Bb as the Bb in a Ab-major scale” or similar - as they have different frequencies. Or more accurately “play this subphrase as if it’s in G-minor, and this phrase as if it’s in Ab-major”. Despite the Clarinet having fixed stops, you still “lip” the notes up and down to get the right frequency.

wumpus 4y ago

Some players of fretted instruments move the frets to match individual pieces of music. In modern rock music, some musicians will change guitars every song to have sweeter chords depending on the particular chords in that song.

coldtea 4y ago
Which "modern rock musicians" do that? It surely is not widespread in rock. Rock musicians change guitars (in a live or even studio situation) mostly to get a different sound or a different tuning (like going from "standard" to an open tuning). Not for microtuning adjustments, or because they have moved the frets to match an individual piece. Some prog musicians might do it, but it surely is not a "rock" custom. In arabic music, on the other hand, or renaissance music, and other genres, it is, and instruments there often have movable frets.
- gromgull 4y ago
  Not moving the frets, but changing guitar: https://youtu.be/Daw93bRHe4Y https://youtu.be/Daw93bRHe4Y

beardyw 4y ago

Physical instruments can't be perfectly in tune even within themselves. Perfectly in tune is the preserve of electronic instruments. Even so I have a software synth that can adjust its own tuning within a chord to provide a more pleasing sound.

mrob 4y ago
A tonewheel organ could be amplified acoustically, e.g. by physically touching an appropriately sized resonant chamber to the wheel when you press a key. The exact size of the resonator does not matter because it's mode locked to the wheel, which turns at a speed determined only by the gear train. Tonewheel organ gears traditionally do not have perfectly accurate tuning, but there's no reason they couldn't be built to match any tuning system within the limits of human hearing (at greater cost and complexity).
timc3 4y ago
Early electronic instruments, particularly before the 1980s had tuning all over the place, and you would have to wait 30 minutes to get anything resembling stability, even then nothing was guaranteed. Think it would be possible to mockup some really interesting tunings/temperaments in BitWigs grid or Max4Live.
yellowapple 4y ago
> Physical instruments can't be perfectly in tune even within themselves. No, but they can sidestep the need to be perfectly in tune within themselves by allowing the player to produce notes unbounded by discrete steps or subdivisions thereof, e.g. fretless string instruments and trombones.
- criddell 4y ago
  Why does fretless matter? Doesn’t string bending also let you play off-note tones?
  - chucksmash 4y ago
    Having to bend up to a given note each time you need to hit it will be slower and less precise. Generally the bend is done after the fretted note is struck as well. I guess it would be possible to always pre-bend to a given alternate note if you wanted a constant tone, but it definitely seems like working against the grain of the tool versus just using a fretless instrument.
    - paulmooreparks 4y ago
      Eddie Van Halen was known to do this, though he was admittedly a freak of nature. He tuned the B string a few cents flat so that barre chords played up the neck would sound more in tune. If he needed to play, for example, a D chord in first position, he'd bend the D fretted on the B string slightly sharp.
      - criddell 4y ago
        There’s a video of a Van Halen concert where the synth track for Jump was played back at the wrong bitrate. Eddie worked furiously to find it on the guitar but couldn’t. It’s pretty wild to watch.
  - coldtea 4y ago
    Because in fretless it can be done all the time - and picking the note manually by exact finger placement is done all the time. In fretted instruments, bending is done for effect, not for adjusting each and every note.

lucas_codes 4y ago

Yes and no, a violinist has to use their taste and experience to match the intonation of the fretted instrument in some cases (for example, when playing the exact same note) and not other cases (for example, perhaps a piano plays a C and a G and violin plays an E, the violinist will likely want to play a lower E than the piano would to get the exact ratios described in the article.)

Arathorn 4y ago

You definitely risk a clash between a well-tempered instrument (like a piano) and a violin, given the piano is just one big compromise whereas the violin can hit the theoretically correct note. Either the violin (typically subconsciously) tweaks the tuning of a given note to match the piano, or the note is too short to notice (given the main way to notice the difference is by spotting pulses, or “beats”, which is the phase difference between the two notes - which could be measured in seconds if it’s <1Hz difference). Khachaturian loved playing with enharmonics - the violin concerto has runs where you get D# and Eb (or similar) in different parts of the same run - or worse, two different Bb’s, as the run implicitly moves through different keys as it goes. This is then made particularly fun in the lead-up to the cadenza, where the violin duels with the clarinet, and to sound correct, you have to explicitly coordinate on which key the various phrases are actually playing in (given it effectively switches implicit key faster than the explicit key signature). From memory, you end up with the clarinet deliberately playing very different enharmonics to the violin, giving it an incredibly otherworldly feeling. edit: to clarify, you literally have to say: “so play this Bb as the Bb in a G-minor scale, and this Bb as the Bb in a Ab-major scale” or similar - as they have different frequencies. Or more accurately “play this subphrase as if it’s in G-minor, and this phrase as if it’s in Ab-major”. Despite the Clarinet having fixed stops, you still “lip” the notes up and down to get the right frequency.