7 ms·

The explanation of enharmonic equivalent (though the author didn't use this term) is right, but I do take problem with this sentence: > but what musical differ

• VBprogrammer 4y ago
  Out of interest, is this still the same when a violin is playing alongside fretted instruments? Wouldn't they sound out of tune in that case?
  • wumpus 4y ago
    Some players of fretted instruments move the frets to match individual pieces of music. In modern rock music, some musicians will change guitars every song to have sweeter chords depending on the particular chords in that song.
    • coldtea 4y ago
      Which "modern rock musicians" do that? It surely is not widespread in rock. Rock musicians change guitars (in a live or even studio situation) mostly to get a different sound or a different tuning (like going from "standard" to an open tuning). Not for microtuning adjustments, or because they have moved the frets to match an individual piece. Some prog musicians might do it, but it surely is not a "rock" custom. In arabic music, on the other hand, or renaissance music, and other genres, it is, and instruments there often have movable frets.
      • gromgull 4y ago
        Not moving the frets, but changing guitar: https://youtu.be/Daw93bRHe4Y https://youtu.be/Daw93bRHe4Y
  • beardyw 4y ago
    Physical instruments can't be perfectly in tune even within themselves. Perfectly in tune is the preserve of electronic instruments. Even so I have a software synth that can adjust its own tuning within a chord to provide a more pleasing sound.
    • mrob 4y ago
      A tonewheel organ could be amplified acoustically, e.g. by physically touching an appropriately sized resonant chamber to the wheel when you press a key. The exact size of the resonator does not matter because it's mode locked to the wheel, which turns at a speed determined only by the gear train. Tonewheel organ gears traditionally do not have perfectly accurate tuning, but there's no reason they couldn't be built to match any tuning system within the limits of human hearing (at greater cost and complexity).
    • timc3 4y ago
      Early electronic instruments, particularly before the 1980s had tuning all over the place, and you would have to wait 30 minutes to get anything resembling stability, even then nothing was guaranteed. Think it would be possible to mockup some really interesting tunings/temperaments in BitWigs grid or Max4Live.
    • yellowapple 4y ago
      > Physical instruments can't be perfectly in tune even within themselves. No, but they can sidestep the need to be perfectly in tune within themselves by allowing the player to produce notes unbounded by discrete steps or subdivisions thereof, e.g. fretless string instruments and trombones.
      • criddell 4y ago
        Why does fretless matter? Doesn’t string bending also let you play off-note tones?
        • chucksmash 4y ago
          Having to bend up to a given note each time you need to hit it will be slower and less precise. Generally the bend is done after the fretted note is struck as well. I guess it would be possible to always pre-bend to a given alternate note if you wanted a constant tone, but it definitely seems like working against the grain of the tool versus just using a fretless instrument.
  • lucas_codes 4y ago
    Yes and no, a violinist has to use their taste and experience to match the intonation of the fretted instrument in some cases (for example, when playing the exact same note) and not other cases (for example, perhaps a piano plays a C and a G and violin plays an E, the violinist will likely want to play a lower E than the piano would to get the exact ratios described in the article.)
  • Arathorn 4y ago
    You definitely risk a clash between a well-tempered instrument (like a piano) and a violin, given the piano is just one big compromise whereas the violin can hit the theoretically correct note. Either the violin (typically subconsciously) tweaks the tuning of a given note to match the piano, or the note is too short to notice (given the main way to notice the difference is by spotting pulses, or “beats”, which is the phase difference between the two notes - which could be measured in seconds if it’s <1Hz difference). Khachaturian loved playing with enharmonics - the violin concerto has runs where you get D# and Eb (or similar) in different parts of the same run - or worse, two different Bb’s, as the run implicitly moves through different keys as it goes. This is then made particularly fun in the lead-up to the cadenza, where the violin duels with the clarinet, and to sound correct, you have to explicitly coordinate on which key the various phrases are actually playing in (given it effectively switches implicit key faster than the explicit key signature). From memory, you end up with the clarinet deliberately playing very different enharmonics to the violin, giving it an incredibly otherworldly feeling. edit: to clarify, you literally have to say: “so play this Bb as the Bb in a G-minor scale, and this Bb as the Bb in a Ab-major scale” or similar - as they have different frequencies. Or more accurately “play this subphrase as if it’s in G-minor, and this phrase as if it’s in Ab-major”. Despite the Clarinet having fixed stops, you still “lip” the notes up and down to get the right frequency.
• throwaway287391 4y ago
  Huh…can I get a source on this that delves into it more? I played the cello in an orchestra, solos, and chamber music for about 10 years growing up and I’ve literally never heard anyone mention I or anyone else should’ve been putting my finger in a slightly different place for C# and Db. I suspect this is for all intents and purposes not true in the 21st century.
  • alar44 4y ago
    It's not the difference between C# or Db per se, it's a function of what note in the chord it is occupying.
    • throwaway287391 4y ago
      I’m responding to this part of the parent’s post: On all fretless instruments, including most bowed strings and the human voice, enharmonic equivalent notes still have different pitches. The subtle differences in intonation is incredibly important and noticeable on the violin, for example.
      • rawling 4y ago
        Would that not just manifest as... you feel like you're out of tune, so you adjust minutely?
      • kzrdude 4y ago
        Yes exactly, and one would intonate it slightly differently by ear depending on what role the note has in the current harmony is the idea. Presume a base note of A is being played and the violin plays a C# functioning as the major third of an A major chord. The ear would want to play the C# justly intonated to the root note A, or maybe a compromise somewhere between equal temperament and just intonation. See for example https://music.stackexchange.com/questions/113812/violin-tuning-equal-temperament-or-just-intonation https://music.stackexchange.com/questions/113812/violin-tuni... there's a lot of nuance. A lot of playing it by ear. :)
  • wumpus 4y ago
• algesten 4y ago
  One great example of this is vocalist groups. The Enya/Lord of the Rings track "May it Be" as sung by Voces8. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7M5ZqFSynQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7M5ZqFSynQ Notice how the fifths are perfectly "still", no beating. It can almost sound out of tune if you're too used to tempered tuning.
  • DiggyJohnson 4y ago
    This is also what makes Barbershop magical.
• tralarpa 4y ago
  This is indeed a very weird thing to say by the author. Your "not quite right" is too kind to the author. As you wrote, good fretless instruments and singers will absolutely play/sing those notes differently, although maybe unconsciously.
  • coldtea 4y ago
    More often than note (sic), they'll play them the same as a piano would, to match the regular instruments they play along with.
    • ninkendo 4y ago
      In a given orchestra (for example), what instruments have fixed tuning? A piano yes (although lots of orchestral music doesn’t have piano.) The harp? I struggle to think of others. Wind instruments essentially have continuous tuning because the player can adjust the pitch with their lips and vocal shape. Orchestral string instruments are all fretless (and thus continuously pitched.) Singers, same thing. Even fretted instruments are often played with a lot of vibrato that masks any true pitch problems. I think the inability to play with a perfect pitch is more the exception than the rule (at least in “classical” music), it’s just that piano is such a popular instrument in the modern era that this becomes a problem.
      • coldtea 4y ago
        >what instruments have fixed tuning? Not that many: the piano, the harp, the glockenspiel, etc. But the thing is, most modern music, is not with a classical orchestra, but can still have violin (and in some genres, like bluegrass, irish, country, etc. it often does).
• coldtea 4y ago
  >This is not quite right. On all fretless instruments, including most bowed strings and the human voice, enharmonic equivalent notes still have different pitches. Not because we want it or it is some ideal situation, though. Just because 12-tet can't get a single note to be in the exact right ratio. If it could, we'd play D# and Eb exactly the same. Besides, if the fretless instrument is not soloing, it might still play it as the 12-tet single note compromise, to match what others play at the same time.
• sgustard 4y ago
  In practice what's the difference in finger location between these almost identical notes on a violin? A millimeter?
  • powersnail 4y ago
    Usually the difference is a slight roll of the finger. But you can hear it. You might not know you can hear the difference in pitch, but you can hear one performer being cleaner than another and intonation accuracy is a huge factor.
  • palimpsests 4y ago
    it depends on where it is on the fretboard. the higher you go in frequency, the physical distance between each interval on the fretboard becomes smaller. so if a +/- 5 cent adjustment is 0.5 mm at the first “fret” after the nut, it will be something like be 0.1 mm when you are at the 7th “fret” location (i.e where the interval of perfect fifth, relative to the open string, is played).