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But there's a risk that their kids won't care about math or won't amount to anything notable in STEM, whereas these 2 are proven to be effective at mathematicia

But there's a risk that their kids won't care about math or won't amount to anything notable in STEM, whereas these 2 are proven to be effective at mathematicians. You know the debate about 10x engineers - and how many people weigh in saying they are real, that 10x may even understate it? Here you have to 10x (minimum) mathematicians. You are suggesting we give that up, that they sacrifice the quiet time mathematicians need to do great work, and devote themselves to raising kids, on the off chance that (some of) their children may contribute more than they will. Imagine Steve Jobs having his first success (incorporating Apple, selling a few units) or Bill Gates (selling some units of BASIC and random software, how Microsoft started) - then quitting to raise a bunch of kids. Is that a good trade? What are their kids up to today - and could we expect much better even if the had 10 times as many? Would you really expect those kids to accomplish more than Jobs and Gates did? When put this way, it obviously sounds like a bad trade.

quickthrower2 4y ago
Both the 15 and 0 kids arguments miss the point. It is their choice. They don’t owe either new people or mathematics to society.
- FabHK 4y ago
  True, but government can still try to nudge behaviour. Singapore famously established the social development unit (SDU) (nicknamed "Single, Desperate and Ugly") to encourage graduates to have more children, by organising speed dating events, BBQs, cruises etc. They also have a "Baby Bonus Scheme" [0]. "SDN’s long term goal has always been to help singles realise their marriage aspirations through equipping singles with relationship skills and creating a vibrant dating scene for singles to interact." [1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/apr/10/gender.uk https://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/apr/10/gender.uk https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/history/events/3c520e6c-dc34-4cef-84f5-1d73062c411b https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/history/events/3c520e6c-dc34-4... https://www.msf.gov.sg/policies/Marriages/Pages/Finding-a-Partner.aspx https://www.msf.gov.sg/policies/Marriages/Pages/Finding-a-Pa... [0] https://www.msf.gov.sg/policies/strong-and-stable-families/supporting-families/pages/baby-bonus-scheme.aspx https://www.msf.gov.sg/policies/strong-and-stable-families/s... [1] https://www.msf.gov.sg/media-room/Pages/Singles-dating-media-queries.aspx https://www.msf.gov.sg/media-room/Pages/Singles-dating-media...
  - ptsneves 4y ago
    Governments nudge because if there is not a continuous thread of culture and people to carry it over a long timespan than a lifetime, then it’s values and long term designs are lost. Immigrants are important but they need to be integrated in something the natives prepare and preserve, otherwise those immigrants would not have moved for something better. The United States have successfully integrated immigrants of many peoples into a framework of life that is still recognisable as European enlightenment. The natives are now not necessarily Europeans but they have been living and reproducing long enough to be part of the fabric that keeps the original European enlightenment tradition in place.
- benreesman 4y ago
  I didn't read the (flagged to hell) GP as implying an obligation. "I strongly encourage so and so to blah and blah" is about as mild as it gets on opinions about other's lives? I wish that was the typical "get in other people's business" tonality.
ptsneves 4y ago
More and more I notice that people have a huge cognitive dissonance in accepting that all people were once children and that these people they know and esteem were once someone’s burden. I also find it somehow naive to believe we are somehow not bound by our biological husk. We enjoy a good and full life on the backs of our parent’s toil, and due to not remembering or not being in contact with families we can feel that life is great and immortal and it always was. I like to think of the hard part of raising children as paying the debt we owe to our parents and ancestors. If not for their survival I would be able to say I am very glad and grateful to be alive and experience the wonders of the universe, wonders like math.

quickthrower2 4y ago

Both the 15 and 0 kids arguments miss the point. It is their choice. They don’t owe either new people or mathematics to society.

FabHK 4y ago
True, but government can still try to nudge behaviour. Singapore famously established the social development unit (SDU) (nicknamed "Single, Desperate and Ugly") to encourage graduates to have more children, by organising speed dating events, BBQs, cruises etc. They also have a "Baby Bonus Scheme" [0]. "SDN’s long term goal has always been to help singles realise their marriage aspirations through equipping singles with relationship skills and creating a vibrant dating scene for singles to interact." [1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/apr/10/gender.uk https://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/apr/10/gender.uk https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/history/events/3c520e6c-dc34-4cef-84f5-1d73062c411b https://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/history/events/3c520e6c-dc34-4... https://www.msf.gov.sg/policies/Marriages/Pages/Finding-a-Partner.aspx https://www.msf.gov.sg/policies/Marriages/Pages/Finding-a-Pa... [0] https://www.msf.gov.sg/policies/strong-and-stable-families/supporting-families/pages/baby-bonus-scheme.aspx https://www.msf.gov.sg/policies/strong-and-stable-families/s... [1] https://www.msf.gov.sg/media-room/Pages/Singles-dating-media-queries.aspx https://www.msf.gov.sg/media-room/Pages/Singles-dating-media...
- ptsneves 4y ago
  Governments nudge because if there is not a continuous thread of culture and people to carry it over a long timespan than a lifetime, then it’s values and long term designs are lost. Immigrants are important but they need to be integrated in something the natives prepare and preserve, otherwise those immigrants would not have moved for something better. The United States have successfully integrated immigrants of many peoples into a framework of life that is still recognisable as European enlightenment. The natives are now not necessarily Europeans but they have been living and reproducing long enough to be part of the fabric that keeps the original European enlightenment tradition in place.
benreesman 4y ago
I didn't read the (flagged to hell) GP as implying an obligation. "I strongly encourage so and so to blah and blah" is about as mild as it gets on opinions about other's lives? I wish that was the typical "get in other people's business" tonality.

ptsneves 4y ago

More and more I notice that people have a huge cognitive dissonance in accepting that all people were once children and that these people they know and esteem were once someone’s burden. I also find it somehow naive to believe we are somehow not bound by our biological husk. We enjoy a good and full life on the backs of our parent’s toil, and due to not remembering or not being in contact with families we can feel that life is great and immortal and it always was. I like to think of the hard part of raising children as paying the debt we owe to our parents and ancestors. If not for their survival I would be able to say I am very glad and grateful to be alive and experience the wonders of the universe, wonders like math.