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> Which is why you evaluate those claims and see what evidence they bring forth. We have a lot of proof and evidence in Islam. Some are listed on www.provingisl

by eis 4y ago

> Which is why you evaluate those claims and see what evidence they bring forth. We have a lot of proof and evidence in Islam. Some are listed on www.provingislam.com Please bring a single proof of god here in your own words. I have already wasted one hour on that video which didn't lead anywhere. > Correlation vs causation. You might want to try apply that to your original claim that the western civilizations are declining because they are so secular. > False dichotomy. No one is saying science isn't useful. As a matter of fact, many of today's foundational sciences and discoveries go back to the Islamic Golden Age. Great Muslim scholars like Al-Khararizmy (the word "algorithm" is a direct derivative of his name), Algebra (the science of Al-Jabr, an Arabic word), and many many more were because Islam pushed those people to seek knowledge and learn about the world around them. Many of those scholars saw studying and exploring the world around them as signs of God. This is something established in the Quran and Hadith. Any many go back to christians, jews or even predate our mainstream religions. During many times throughout history not claiming to be part of a belief system would net you severe repercussions. Maybe Islam encouraged seeking knowledge. Pretty sure it also persecuted people who seeked knowledge that Islam didn't like. > Maybe the colonizing West that engaged in dirty divide and conquer tactics has something to do with it? Or maybe that happened already before all the western influence? I am also not claiming the west being good. I'm saying both sides are doing shit. I'm no fan of the wars that the US waged in Iraq, Afghanistan etc. That one side is doing something bad does not make the bad things that the other side is doing OK. The point is any fighting is bad. > So tell me why are they wrong to say that rape is just a phenomenon or that incest is ok. On what basis, from a strictly atheistic materialistic world view are you going to make an opposite claim? That's super trivial. I'd argue rape being just a phenomenon is wrong because accepting it as such has bad repercussions on our society. Rape leaves the victim traumatized and less productive in society. Society has to expend resources to help the victim. As for incest: anyone with a bit of knowledge how reproduction and genetics work can see that inbreeding increases the chance of genetic defects. The whole point why evolution came up with the concept of sexes is to mix genes from different pools to avoid this problem. Genetic defects again hurt a society.

al_mandi 4y ago
> Please bring a single proof of god here in your own words. I have already wasted one hour on that video which didn't lead anywhere. That video was a good start, the fine tuning argument, the fact that something cannot come out of nothing, etc. The next step is that when someone claims to have been sent by God, we look at the evidence he brings forth. Prophet Muhammad Prayers of God be upon brought with him signs and performed miracles. The Quran itself is a living miracle, no one had been able to bring anything like it, and the Arabs at the time tried. Some even admitted but would not believe due to pride, this is quite well documented. Furthermore, the Quran and Hadiths talk about events that happen tens or even thousands of years later. The website I linked mentions over 100 of them. Some like the desolate bedouins competing to build tall towers or the fact that the deserts of Arabia were not only green, but would return to be rivers and meadows have only been discovered very recently. > You might want to try apply that to your original claim that the western civilizations are declining because they are so secular. The behavior of secular people is quite obvious as to what is causing these issues. Many of them get rich, have everything at their disposal and think, this is it? This has happened time and time again. I'd be interested to hear your explanation. The Quran already alluded to this over 1400 years ago, even when atheism was not common (another miracle): > But whoever turns away from My Reminder will certainly have a miserable life -- https://quran.com/20/124 https://quran.com/20/124 > Any many go back to christians, jews or even predate our mainstream religions The difference is that with Islam, those scholars admit that it was Islam is what played a role in pushing them to pursue knowledge. It's in our religion. > Pretty sure it also persecuted people who seeked knowledge that Islam didn't like. Bold and false claim. Show me your proof. Islam is not Europe in the dark ages that you are talking about. > Or maybe that happened already before all the western influence? The Islamic world had the Caliphate established until WWI. Not saying that we did not make mistakes (one of the biggest was getting involved in WWI to begin with), but since then, it's been quite clear what's going on. > I'd argue rape being just a phenomenon is wrong But it's not wrong according to those atheist figures, who are heavily pushing atheism. You cannot force your view on him. Once such practices get adopted and popular, you have no retort. > Rape leaves the victim traumatized and less productive in society Maybe, maybe not. Rape used to be common back in the day, and people were not as traumatized. Secondly, who cares about society, we're all "chemical scum" anyway. Why does it matter? > anyone with a bit of knowledge how reproduction and genetics work can see that inbreeding increases the chance of genetic defects. So? Also, there's birth control and abortion to solve that problem.

by eis 4y ago

al_mandi 4y ago

> Please bring a single proof of god here in your own words. I have already wasted one hour on that video which didn't lead anywhere. That video was a good start, the fine tuning argument, the fact that something cannot come out of nothing, etc. The next step is that when someone claims to have been sent by God, we look at the evidence he brings forth. Prophet Muhammad Prayers of God be upon brought with him signs and performed miracles. The Quran itself is a living miracle, no one had been able to bring anything like it, and the Arabs at the time tried. Some even admitted but would not believe due to pride, this is quite well documented. Furthermore, the Quran and Hadiths talk about events that happen tens or even thousands of years later. The website I linked mentions over 100 of them. Some like the desolate bedouins competing to build tall towers or the fact that the deserts of Arabia were not only green, but would return to be rivers and meadows have only been discovered very recently. > You might want to try apply that to your original claim that the western civilizations are declining because they are so secular. The behavior of secular people is quite obvious as to what is causing these issues. Many of them get rich, have everything at their disposal and think, this is it? This has happened time and time again. I'd be interested to hear your explanation. The Quran already alluded to this over 1400 years ago, even when atheism was not common (another miracle): > But whoever turns away from My Reminder will certainly have a miserable life -- https://quran.com/20/124 https://quran.com/20/124 > Any many go back to christians, jews or even predate our mainstream religions The difference is that with Islam, those scholars admit that it was Islam is what played a role in pushing them to pursue knowledge. It's in our religion. > Pretty sure it also persecuted people who seeked knowledge that Islam didn't like. Bold and false claim. Show me your proof. Islam is not Europe in the dark ages that you are talking about. > Or maybe that happened already before all the western influence? The Islamic world had the Caliphate established until WWI. Not saying that we did not make mistakes (one of the biggest was getting involved in WWI to begin with), but since then, it's been quite clear what's going on. > I'd argue rape being just a phenomenon is wrong But it's not wrong according to those atheist figures, who are heavily pushing atheism. You cannot force your view on him. Once such practices get adopted and popular, you have no retort. > Rape leaves the victim traumatized and less productive in society Maybe, maybe not. Rape used to be common back in the day, and people were not as traumatized. Secondly, who cares about society, we're all "chemical scum" anyway. Why does it matter? > anyone with a bit of knowledge how reproduction and genetics work can see that inbreeding increases the chance of genetic defects. So? Also, there's birth control and abortion to solve that problem.