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D.C.-area startup wants to solve the public bathroom problem
- bparsons 4y agoEvery six months, some startup guy invents public transit, or some other amenity that has existed for over a 100 years.
- eru 4y agoPaid public toilets are banned in large parts of the US.
- rdtwo 4y agoYeah it’s unfortunate, post covid a lot of previously accessible bathrooms are no longer available and with no public options is a huge inconvenience
- eru 4y agoYes. But the silly bans on paid toilets stem from the 1970s. See eg https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-11-19/why-the-u-s-should-give-pay-toilets-another-chance https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-11-19/why-the-u...
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- xyzzy123 4y agoA lot of amenities "worked" before because of aggressive social norm enforcement. For example, people experiencing persistent mental health issues would literally be locked up "for the common good". I think what we are seeing is people trying to use technology to replace earlier (primarily social) technologies of control like shaming, religious instruction, tighter communities, aggressive policing etc. It's not the amenities themselves being reinvented, it's new techniques of social control to uphold good behaviour and care for shared resources.
- rdtwo 4y agoYeah everyone is just trying to thread the needle off social Justice by using technology discriminate in ways that are not socially acceptable in highly liberal areas.
- coffee_beqn 4y ago> For example, people experiencing persistent mental health issues would literally be locked up "for the common good". I don’t know that we’re doing much better now. Is it so great that now the same people spend a few decades self-medicating and living like rats on the streets because they can’t escape their inner demons without extremely intense intervention? Do people really look at a person having a violent psychotic breakdown for the 10th time this year in the street and pat society on the back that at least he’s not in a mental institution..
- bparsons 4y agoSomehow, other OECD countries don't have these problems. They just properly fund public amenities and they magically function.
- singhrac 4y agoI am ok with startups attempting to innovate in products that meet the needs of humans beyond wealthy tech workers; sure they deserve criticism when being discriminatory or having bad societal effects, but can we really rely on the public sector to build and deploy new technology? I’d much rather see brainpower being spent on thinking about innovation in cleanliness than on the next “open source DataDog clone”. Let’s encourage people to go after hard but important problems (but not shy away from valid criticism, of course).
- FutureZeitgeist 4y ago
- teddyh 4y ago> COO Jessica Heinzelman says she hopes people will take #ThroneSelfies for Instagram. I sincerely hope not.
- smegsicle 4y agotrending with their partner #livemas
- teddyh 4y ago> User IDs are part of Throne’s accountability system: After you use a restroom, you’re asked to rate its cleanliness. Meanwhile, each user gets a “Throne score,” similar to Uber, and repeat offenders who abuse the restroom will be blocked. Weight sensors also track if someone’s been in the bathroom too long. “Very few people create issues in [public] bathrooms, don’t respect that amenity, and then ruin it for the majority. Most people really want and value that clean experience and will leave the bathroom as good as they find it,” Heinzelman says, adding that user IDs are a way to “create the accountability that is currently missing in the shared bathroom space.” Personally, I consider bathroom facilities which track you personally, and can block you for any reason, not to actually be “public” bathrooms. They’re essentially proposing to put a large number of very tiny private clubs all over a city. I would argue that this is not actually solving the public bathroom problem.
- MonkeyMalarky 4y agoSeriously though, accountability is the missing thing. If getting banned for consistently making a mess is what it takes to get public bathrooms back, then so be it. There's no excuse for the shit I've seen. I'm tired of being denied amenities because of other peoples' degenerate behaviour.
- teddyh 4y agoSome people think that a dictatorship is OK as long as the trains all run on time. The right way to solve the problem is not to harden the gatekeeping, but to improve society so that gatekeeping becomes unnecessary. But that’s hard, and has no obvious point where someone can extract money.
- ravel-bar-foo 4y agoWhat are the options to "improve society" so people don't make a mess in shared bathrooms? PSAs? Public shaming? Collateral put down to use bathrooms? Do you have any better and specific ideas? I can't think of much more gentle and more likely to motivate people to change behavior than a public accountability system, although it is regrettable that it must be run through a for-profit entity and look like a social credit score.
- mxwsn 4y agoFrom listening to a podcast or two, my impression is that the Public Bathroom Problem is an economic one. There were many paid public bathrooms in the past in the US, but they were deemed sexist and banned. Then cities didn't want to foot the bill, so they closed many of them. What's this startups' business model?
- eru 4y agoYes, it sounds like their very business model is banned in large parts of the country. Perhaps they'll do some 'regulatory arbitrage' like Uber? Ie just operate in what's at best a legal grey area, and then use lobbying and lawyers to legitimise your business model?
- jjulius 4y agoTook me a while to find how they make money, but I ended up finding this[1] on the most godawful of websites (seriously, either use an adblocker or fucking avoid it entirely, good god)... >Currently, businesses and other public entities can rent a Throne on a monthly basis, which includes cleaning and servicing. But Heinzelman said the company is also exploring an option to purchase a Throne or to rent a larger volume at once. So far, the startup has raised seed funding primarily from angel investors and will be looking to raise a Series A in mid-2023. Thanks to that Series-A comment, my pessimistic take is that these will be "public" and "free" for now, and eventually we'll see them implementing monthly fees/subscriptions and/or microtransactions or whathaveyou. Edit: Seems I'm ignorant in this area and that paid public toilets are against the law in many areas. Still can't help but be pessimistic, though. [1]https://agadir-group.com/dc-startup-throne-is-bringing-tech-to-portable-bathrooms-around-the-city/ https://agadir-group.com/dc-startup-throne-is-bringing-tech-...
- hot_gril 4y agoPrice fixing, with price set to 0, and no subsidy. Yep.
- borski 4y agoWhat I’m really interested in is why they were deemed sexist; in Europe, which I just came back from visiting, paid toilets were everywhere and they were not usually particularly clean.
- idontwantthis 4y agoJFC can I not take a shit without someone tracking me? Hey American cities! Charge $1 to use a toilet like they do in Europe.
- RHSeeger 4y agoIt is, unfortunately, illegal to charge for toilet use in many places.
- borski 4y agoWhy?
- kyleee 4y agoit's free to use but anonymized footage of the deed will be sold to our list of 96 advertising partners. If you'd like to opt-out please contact our partners individually
- hackerlight 4y agoThat would exclude the worst offenders. But it doesn't solve the incentive problem of tragedy of the commons. Once people have paid $1, that's immediately a sunk cost, and from then people have no reason (aside from morals, which are absent in some people) not to shit on the toilet seat and walk out. But it still may be an alright solution (when combined with regular cleaners), even if it isn't a perfect one.
- withinboredom 4y agoHere, you get a voucher that you can use to get your money back and can use it in the business the bathroom is located in, or in one of the nearby businesses.
- idontwantthis 4y agoThe dollar is used to pay for cleaning and attendance. This is an existing system. The US used to do it.
- eyelidlessness 4y ago> QR code Um, solve the public restrooms problem for whom? Granted I’ve been living far from DC for 20 years, but I spent a large chunk of this summer there. Access to public restrooms was the same as it is here in Seattle: only a problem if you’re a street critter. People who can scan QR codes already have plenty of access to restrooms, they just need to at least suggest they’ll buy something. Homeless people and people barely making ends meet need to be able to use a restroom, and they shouldn’t need a smartphone to do that.
- CharlesW 4y agoThe callousness of “street critter” really hits hard.
- slumpt_ 4y agoHackernews in general can be quite callous towards poverty.
- newaccount2021 4y ago
- eyelidlessness 4y agoI’m not sure if my post was taken as callous but I was explicitly rejecting anti poverty, my usage of the term was as a term of affection for the people I was advocating for, and identification with them. To be absolutely blunt I have only solidarity with my fellow street critters. And I want them to be able to use a bathroom without a QR code. Like everyone who isn’t a street critter can do (despite bullshit whining in other comments)
- DoreenMichele 4y agoNot as callous as most parts of the Internet. HN is the garden spot of Ceti Alpha Six.
- rightbyte 4y ago
- ryukafalz 4y ago> Weight sensors also track if someone’s been in the bathroom too long. As someone with IBS and a few other related things this sounds like it has the potential to be incredibly annoying and frustrating.
- Animats 4y agoIn San Francisco JCDeaux already does that. Those units are self-cleaning, handicapped-accessible, and cost about $300K each. They're complicated, with motors, sensors, and valves. All the hardware and controls are Telemechanique industrial grade. SF has a big problem with those. Vandalism, people shooting up inside, people dumping trash in them, etc. There's no problem providing public bathrooms for rich people. It's providing public bathrooms for homeless people that's a problem. Wheelchair accessibility triples the size and price of the units. Here's what JCDEaux installs in countries that don't require it.[1] San Francisco has an attended 24 hour portable restroom operation in poor parts of the city, called "Pit Stop". Total operating costs are around $30 per flush.[2] The most workable low-end solution currently seems to be the Portland Loo.[3] "The sleek and modern kiosk discourages crime with graffiti-proof wall panels and open grating that allows you to see if and how many people are inside." It's not self-cleaning like the expensive JCDeaux units, but it can be hosed down or if necessary pressure-washed. [1] https://www.jcdecaux.lt/en/news/modern-public-toilet-klaipeda-city https://www.jcdecaux.lt/en/news/modern-public-toilet-klaiped... [2] https://www.businessinsider.com/san-francisco-public-pit-stop-toilets-cost-per-flush-2019-12 https://www.businessinsider.com/san-francisco-public-pit-sto... [3] https://portlandloo.com/ https://portlandloo.com/
- neurostimulant 4y ago> San Francisco has an attended 24 hour portable restroom operation in poor parts of the city, called "Pit Stop". Total operating costs are around $30 per flush. At this price, isn't it cheaper to operate traditional restroom with full time janitor instead?
- erenyeager 4y agoWhat a frightening solution that Portland loo is. Compromising on the most basic sense of privacy that a bathroom should provide. And putting the hand washing station on the outside? This just reeks of cultural bias and not considering the bathroom uses of others. Some people like to carry bidets they can fill to clean themselves, some people like to wet toilet papers they use for cleaning, some people feel safety and more secure being able to clean themselves and make ablution in an enclosed bathroom environment. Certainly hope the project fails.
- ookblah 4y agoUS suffers from an additional culture problem that doesn't allow us to have nice public things. Every public restroom in NYC I can think of outside of Bryant Park ends up turning into a shithole, literally.
- decafninja 4y agoWhat keeps the Bryant Park restrooms clean? What's different about it? I've never actually used it. The Port Authority bus terminal bathrooms recently had a full renovation. It was nice enough for a little while, but it didn't take long for it to become a shithole. The money spent to clean it up and renovate it turned to shit.
- borski 4y agoUsually the people cleaning it. Just done more often and with better effect. Also Bryant Park tends to be a bit nicer and upscale, population-wise.
- DubiousPusher 4y agoWhy do they need to be nice? It's a place to shit. I get it. We all like a dandified street but people's right to a place to do what they biologically have to do trumps anyone's right to aesthetic purity, IMO.
- exolymph 4y agoThe issue is more basic sanitation than aesthetic purity.
- DubiousPusher 4y agoReally? In what regard? It is not impossible to clear away any unsanitary side effect on a daily basis.
- graeme 4y ago
- voidhorse 4y agoI wasn’t aware that there was a “public bathroom problem”.
- TheBigSalad 4y agoThe problem is that there are very few public restrooms in American cities.
- imgabe 4y agoI don't know why cities don't offer a tax break to businesses to make their bathrooms publicly available. Make it enough that they can hire an extra employee to make sure there's someone to check the bathroom periodically and do some random checks to make sure businesses aren't cheating. It would have to be cheaper than operating separate public bathrooms. I live in Hong Kong and am still a little amazed at the ubiquitous, free, clean public restrooms. They're not luxurious usually, but they're available and never a disaster. As far as I can tell, the city employs a pretty large staff to check and clean them throughout the day. But then there's also no massive homeless and drug problem like there is in the US.
- hot_gril 4y ago> But then there's also no massive homeless and drug problem like there is in the US. Well that's the key. Go somewhere without that problem in the US, and every amenity is easy to find. In some places, you can visit a stranger's house and ask to use the toilet, which I've seen before.
- hugh-avherald 4y agoWhy is a tax break the mechanism you suggest?
- imgabe 4y agoBecause it's a service the business is performing for the public and they should be compensated for it. It also makes it easier to opt out and reduces the regulatory burden, which benefits small business. McDonald's and Starbucks etc. will have no problem figuring out how to qualify for the tax break and jump through the hoops to get it. Then the city gets hundreds of new public bathrooms that they don't have to maintain for minimal cost. A small mom and pop bodega or flower shop or whatever that barely makes a profit might decide it's not worth it. If it's a requirement, that business just ceases to exist and the city is deprived of it. If it's optional, they can still operate, and the city doesn't end up a homogeneous wasteland of corporate brands. They just don't get a tax break, but if they're not making much money, they probably aren't paying much tax anyway.
- 4y ago
- beej71 4y agoCan someone mark a perfectly clean bathroom as trashed, then trash it and have the previous user take the blame?
- vsskanth 4y agoI spent a lot of time traveling in Europe and the public toilets were top notch and clean. The big difference ? I usually had to pay a nominal amount - 1 euro, to use it. Totally worth it IMO. Although I found it odd they sometimes had a person with a white lab coat outside. Why the lab coat ?
- kyleee 4y agothey're there to collect your specimen?
- DubiousPusher 4y agoIf it can be a law to require you to use the bathroom in a specific way, the collective should provide a way to comply with the law. Anything else is unjust. Being upset that people dirty public restrooms, shoot up in them or over occupy them is not a justification for creating a situation which takes people's freedom away.
- imgabe 4y agoWhat law? There is no law requiring anyone to use these restrooms. This is a private company making restrooms available under specific conditions.
- DubiousPusher 4y agoIt is illegal in most places to defecate or urinate in public, or really anywhere other than a toilet. This company shouldn't need to exist. Facilities should be provided by the government if they wish to have such a law in place. This and several other laws create a situation in America where it is a crime to be destitute.
- imgabe 4y agoWhen the government provides those facilities, they get destroyed or monopolized by drug users. People can't destroy the provided facilities and then complain that they aren't available. Society does require a modicum of cooperation from the public in order to function.
- DubiousPusher 4y agoI disagree. Creating a law which is impossible for some portion of the public to comply with is always wrong.
- imgabe 4y agoIt is in no way impossible for anyone to avoid shitting in the street if they care to put in the slightest bit of effort to avoid doing so.
- Proven 4y ago
- hot_gril 4y agoPublic restroom: exists Someone: It's time to get shwifty in here...
- unixhero 4y agoStartup? This is a government problem.
- Guy2020 4y ago
- bergenty 4y agoGas stations are our public toilets in the US.
- Kaibeezy 4y agoStarbucks. A public toilet that sells coffee.
- moomin 4y agoThe real public bathroom problem isn’t that middle class people have a dearth of options, it’s that people with no money at all, especially homeless people, have no options whatsoever.
- luplex 4y agoIf you block people from using the bathroom, they will use the outside of the bathroom. A better solution would be to clean them often.
- withinboredom 4y agoI don't know why you're downvoted. My son had to really do a pee (he was 3-4?) and the staff at a grocery store wouldn't let him use their bathroom. I asked: "do you really want to clean pee off the floor, because that is his next option." They told us to leave so I had him pee on the inside of the front door and we left, never to return. Edit: we had a cart full of food doing proper grocery shopping, we weren't there to just to use the bathroom.
- mnahkies 4y agoThis is really the crux of the issue, if you gotta go you gotta go. Sure you will try to find a suitable place but eventually you get to make a decision between your pants and whatever is around (and hence the need for high enough density of publicly accessible facilities)
- thinkingemote 4y agoAt root is that an individualist culture exposes itself as seriously broken in the public space. There can be no public good if the individual always comes first. Paid high tech street toilets are a logical conclusion of a culture with little shared public good. The human rights and priority of the individual is respected and maintained. Public toilets will go away as the public goes away.
- danielfoster 4y agoI’ve always wondered why American bathrooms are a wreck relative to Japanese bathrooms. I think individualism is a reasonable explanation.
- bart_spoon 4y agoI’ve lived in some places that emphasize the collective over the individual, and I’ve come to the same conclusion. I have little hope that America improves at all in any of these dimensions. Individualism is too engrained.
- bojangleslover 4y agoI'd rather install the Amsterdam-style urinals than download another app
- shermozle 4y agoYou realise that this is a North American problem? The rest of the world has public toilets.
- newaccount2021 4y ago
- markdestouches 4y agoYou buy a card with a unique id that grants access to any public bathroom cabin. Anyone with such card can report a cabin if it's a mess. If it is - the previous visitor's card gets banned. You also get banned for false reports. The maintainers of the bathroom verify the reports. The card needs to be expensive enough to not be disposable, but also cheap enough so that all social classes can afford it. Problem solved without any need for any private data, etc
- incone123 4y agoFlaw in that: I can leave the place covered in shit, my card gets reported by the next user and I just buy another anonymous card because I can afford it.
- markdestouches 4y agoYes, you can do that. But the price should be such (say, $30) that people like you would be a very small minority. Of course, there will still be people that could do that. The system does not eliminate such behavior completely, but it reduces it to the point where it does not affect the availability of the service (in theory, ofc). Moreover, under such system the ones who pay the most are the exact same people who cause the most mess.
- Overtonwindow 4y agoPerhaps the cards can be given out through social services
- robk 4y agountil charities decide to start buying them on behalf of drug users and giving them new ones after their ban. No one will be able to stand up to the complaints that a person can be banned from the toilet no matter how badly they destroy it
- jollybean 4y agoNot wheelchair accessible = DOA. I'm fairly empathetic to the notion, but city councils are aggressive on this, it's an impossible continuum of BS. There is a staircase in Vancouver where the 'ramp' actually criss-crosses the steps in a zig zag down the hill and people are screaming that the wheelchair people wouldn't be able to handle 'the traffic' of people going up and down the stairs in front of them. Which is insanely and bizarrely ridiculous of course, because they'd nary cross paths with anyone else, and if they did, it'd be the same as navigating the regular sidewalk. The lack of public bathrooms is a social and organizational problem. Our city councils are insane, we can't get along, we can't be reasonable, we try to accommodate everyone and everything. All of that said - an Uber/AirBnB type thing, if it were to be accepted, might be nice. I wonder if Starbucks and McDonald's and gas stations could be 'required' to have such 3rd party 'pay bathrooms' on premise as per city reg or something. Ideally they'd be run by the city but I have little faith in our operational capacity otherwise.
- quitit 4y agoNot against this idea, but it seems like the real solution is better government service for the available public toilets for areas that don't already have it. In my area there is a simple map layer that shows all of the available public bathrooms. Other than being a convenience for the public, it's partly an essential service for people with crohn's syndrome, IBS or other medical issues that lead to urgent toileting requirements. This seems like an inexpensive way of better utilising what is already there - this is something that should be done in addition to any new toilet-services.
- Overtonwindow 4y agoSome strange privacy quirks aside, I really hope this is a great success. The United States needs public restrooms. However that has to be accomplished, it is becoming a vital need. I was flabbergasted in Germany when I could go to a public restroom for the equivalent of a quarter. Clean, plenty of toilet paper, safe, brilliant. In Paris they have small buildings where you go in and close the door and for a quarter you get 15 minutes. It’s like trash, give people a trashcan and they will use it. Provide public restrooms and people will use them instead of letting it go on the street
- oth001 4y agoWell this is dystopian.