4 ms·

I wish I had a better ear and could tell you what sounds funny to me about the piano at the top. Can anyone explain why it sounds off to me?

by issa 4y ago

InCityDreams 4y ago
Mixing sharps and flats? I chose c as root and db (d flat) is in the image...but so is f# (f sharp). I have no problems explaining ie fb (f flat) or e# (e sharp) etc, in certain circumstances, but I'm a great believer in: don't mix the two (sharps and flats).
moosedev 4y ago
Taking a guess at what you're noticing but might not have a framework/vocabulary for... It sounds like FM synthesis[0] to me (so either an embedded FM software synthesizer or simply replaying samples of FM synthesis), so the timbre is quite unlike a "real" piano or PCM samples of a real piano. Timbre is a kind of "color" of "quality" of a sound - in my head it's similar to how different materials feel different to the touch. A violin and a trumpet can play the same "note" but their sounds have very different timbres. An apple and a ball might both appear red but have different surface textures. The "piano" in the app sounds like the piano patches (presets) on FM-based synthesizers from the 1980s[1], where the designers tried to approximate the timbre of a piano using the limited (but fun!) possibilities of FM, while the transients and harmonics produced by a real acoustic piano are more complex. The pitches and temperament sound OK to me, so I think what you are are hearing is the timbre. That is, the app is playing the "right" notes, but it's as if you're hearing a "different instrument", albeit one that is an early digital approximation of a piano sound. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frequency_modulation_synthesis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frequency_modulation_synthesis [1] e.g. the Yamaha DX7; here's one of its "piano" sounds for comparison: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3rrjQtQe5A&t=214s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3rrjQtQe5A&t=214s
issa 4y ago
I think it is more a pitch thing. Playing the scale up from C, the F sounds off. Not sure why. My first guess was it was a sample just playing at different speeds and that was causing some issues.
- moosedev 4y ago
  You have a better ear than you think! I tried it again (and actually tried all the notes this time...) and the F is definitely flat. It's particularly noticeable in the 5th octave (i.e. if you play C5 D5 E5 F5), but all the F's appear to have the issue. I verified (by ear) against Pianoteq set to equal temperament. The other notes sound OK. The A and B might be a tiny bit flat too but my ear isn't good enough, and if they're flat they're nowhere near as far off as the F. OP, how are you specifying notes/pitches to the synthesizer?
  - jnkkkk 4y ago
    I implemented the synthesizer from scratch. Honestly I'm not super familair with digital synthesizer theory and for the implementation, mostly I referred to this article https://keithwhor.com/music/ https://keithwhor.com/music/ The code of my implementation is at https://github.com/JNKKKK/pianochord.io/blob/master/src/libs/audiosynth.ts https://github.com/JNKKKK/pianochord.io/blob/master/src/libs... I guess it't not a good choice to implement that part on my own, since there are many good libraries out there, like tone.js. I will probably deprecate my own synthesizer implementation and use tone.js.
    - moosedev 4y ago
      Your F, defined on line 26 [0], is 3Hz off according to this reference table[1]. 346.23 should be 349.23. Just a typo? All credit to @issa's ear. And yes, while you'd be unlikely to have encountered this bug if you were just telling a good existing synth to play an F, it's cool that you implemented the synth from scratch! Whether it's a good choice depends on the project goals. [0] https://github.com/JNKKKK/pianochord.io/blob/master/src/libs/audiosynth.ts#L26 https://github.com/JNKKKK/pianochord.io/blob/master/src/libs... [1] https://pages.mtu.edu/~suits/notefreqs.html https://pages.mtu.edu/~suits/notefreqs.html
      - jnkkkk 4y ago
        Ah! Nice catch!! I didn't even notice that. My expectation for this project is focusing mainly on the music theory part and visualization. So I guess using a good existing synth will make my life eaiser. Thanks again!

I wish I had a better ear and could tell you what sounds funny to me about the piano at the top. Can anyone explain why it sounds off to me?

by issa 4y ago

I wish I had a better ear and could tell you what sounds funny to me about the piano at the top. Can anyone explain why it sounds off to me?

InCityDreams 4y ago

Mixing sharps and flats? I chose c as root and db (d flat) is in the image...but so is f# (f sharp). I have no problems explaining ie fb (f flat) or e# (e sharp) etc, in certain circumstances, but I'm a great believer in: don't mix the two (sharps and flats).

moosedev 4y ago

Taking a guess at what you're noticing but might not have a framework/vocabulary for... It sounds like FM synthesis[0] to me (so either an embedded FM software synthesizer or simply replaying samples of FM synthesis), so the timbre is quite unlike a "real" piano or PCM samples of a real piano. Timbre is a kind of "color" of "quality" of a sound - in my head it's similar to how different materials feel different to the touch. A violin and a trumpet can play the same "note" but their sounds have very different timbres. An apple and a ball might both appear red but have different surface textures. The "piano" in the app sounds like the piano patches (presets) on FM-based synthesizers from the 1980s[1], where the designers tried to approximate the timbre of a piano using the limited (but fun!) possibilities of FM, while the transients and harmonics produced by a real acoustic piano are more complex. The pitches and temperament sound OK to me, so I think what you are are hearing is the timbre. That is, the app is playing the "right" notes, but it's as if you're hearing a "different instrument", albeit one that is an early digital approximation of a piano sound. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frequency_modulation_synthesis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frequency_modulation_synthesis [1] e.g. the Yamaha DX7; here's one of its "piano" sounds for comparison: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3rrjQtQe5A&t=214s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3rrjQtQe5A&t=214s

issa 4y ago

I think it is more a pitch thing. Playing the scale up from C, the F sounds off. Not sure why. My first guess was it was a sample just playing at different speeds and that was causing some issues.

moosedev 4y ago
You have a better ear than you think! I tried it again (and actually tried all the notes this time...) and the F is definitely flat. It's particularly noticeable in the 5th octave (i.e. if you play C5 D5 E5 F5), but all the F's appear to have the issue. I verified (by ear) against Pianoteq set to equal temperament. The other notes sound OK. The A and B might be a tiny bit flat too but my ear isn't good enough, and if they're flat they're nowhere near as far off as the F. OP, how are you specifying notes/pitches to the synthesizer?
- jnkkkk 4y ago
  I implemented the synthesizer from scratch. Honestly I'm not super familair with digital synthesizer theory and for the implementation, mostly I referred to this article https://keithwhor.com/music/ https://keithwhor.com/music/ The code of my implementation is at https://github.com/JNKKKK/pianochord.io/blob/master/src/libs/audiosynth.ts https://github.com/JNKKKK/pianochord.io/blob/master/src/libs... I guess it't not a good choice to implement that part on my own, since there are many good libraries out there, like tone.js. I will probably deprecate my own synthesizer implementation and use tone.js.
  - moosedev 4y ago
    Your F, defined on line 26 [0], is 3Hz off according to this reference table[1]. 346.23 should be 349.23. Just a typo? All credit to @issa's ear. And yes, while you'd be unlikely to have encountered this bug if you were just telling a good existing synth to play an F, it's cool that you implemented the synth from scratch! Whether it's a good choice depends on the project goals. [0] https://github.com/JNKKKK/pianochord.io/blob/master/src/libs/audiosynth.ts#L26 https://github.com/JNKKKK/pianochord.io/blob/master/src/libs... [1] https://pages.mtu.edu/~suits/notefreqs.html https://pages.mtu.edu/~suits/notefreqs.html
    - jnkkkk 4y ago
      Ah! Nice catch!! I didn't even notice that. My expectation for this project is focusing mainly on the music theory part and visualization. So I guess using a good existing synth will make my life eaiser. Thanks again!