4 ms·

>Supporters say the collections are a legitimate way for states to recoup millions of taxpayer dollars spent on prisons and jails. Wait there are supporters of

>Supporters say the collections are a legitimate way for states to recoup millions of taxpayer dollars spent on prisons and jails. Wait there are supporters of this? You're telling me if I asked 100 people on the street, there'd be someone that said "oh yeah this is a pretty fair and reasonable law to charge the inmates 5-star hotel prices"??

rzazueta 4y ago
Depends on how you ask the question. "Is it fair to incarcerate individuals for their preference of intoxicant in a free and liberal democracy?" "Should drug users and other junkies be taken off the streets to keep them safe for the rest of us?"
- yeeyeeyee 4y ago
  That's not my question. There's exactly one way to ask my question. "Do you think prisoners should be charged $250/night for their incarceration?"
  - t-writescode 4y ago
    Oh there’s plenty of other ways you can ask it. “Should prisoners pay the price of their stay in prison, including room, board, food and security?”
MichaelCollins 4y ago
> You're telling me if I asked 100 people on the street, Confronting people on the street with questions like this won't give you a representative sample of what people really think. The sort of people who support the system to maintain their class/lifestyle are likely to ignore your question or to perceive your activist intent and lie to you to avoid getting sucker punched by the 'crazy person on the street.'
- voisin 4y ago
  I think the poster was making the point of doing a survey. Perhaps not set on the actual method of that survey.
  - yeeyeeyee 4y ago
    Yep, I meant #2 from https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/on_the_street https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/on_the_street Idioms are hard! Want to apologize on behalf of the English language.
Jcowell 4y ago
In America ? Yes. I’m willing to bet a good part of the reason why our prisons they way they are is because many see it as a means of revenge and not rehabilitation. No one cares if a rapist or pedo is saddled with debt , much less of they leave out of there alive.
throwaway0a5e 4y ago
Based on the comments in the "NYC is owed a bajillion dollars in parking tickets" thread from a couple days ago I bet you could get an easy dozen if you just dropped the phrase "five star hotel prices". People are strongly in favor of harsh punishments for the type of crimes they don't ever see themselves committing, like not paying a ticket apparently.
- bobthepanda 4y ago
  The NYC parking tickets thing has a few other dimensions, like the fact that the worst scofflaws are actually the diplomatic corps of other countries (there for the UN) that claim immunity to avoid having to pay the tickets. So not only do you get to bash elites, they’re other country’s elites and not countries that the US has warm relations with. There was actually a sigh of relief in many circles when New York lost the 2012 Olympics bid, because many people did not see the benefit of holding the games being worth the massive headaches of infrastructure overload.
  - greedo 4y ago
    Don't forget the members of New York's finest; the NYPD is well known for abusing parking on a consistent basis.
DisjointedHunt 4y ago
It’s insane. Prison conditions in the US are infamous for the degrading of the human experience to a point of no return. Open rape culture, radicalization, utterly despicable behavior that even barbarians would shiver at openly covered in popular culture as fact. As someone who grew up outside the US, it is truly astonishing how fucked up the system is.
- selectodude 4y ago
  That’s pretty normal for prison culture worldwide. US prisons are far less inhumane than, say, France.
  - trasz 4y ago
    French prisons use slave labour?
    - selectodude 4y ago
      Oui.
      - trasz 4y ago
        Can you give me some reference, or a keyword? I can’t find much about it; what I found is that they can work and get paid, but I didn’t find anything about being forced to.
shakezula 4y ago
This is a problem of Stated preference vs. Revealed preference. You ask them what they think and they'd tell you "that's awful, I can't believe that, that's so unfair" but you put them up on the ballot at the midterms and get them to repeal it and all of a sudden it's about being "tough on crime" and "keeping our streets clean".
- bobthepanda 4y ago
  Also, prisons are often located in depressed small town as a stable source of government jobs. Those people don’t want to go back to being in a depressed economy. The most extreme example of this is that the site of the 1970 Lake Placid Winter Olympics was designed to be used post games as a prison, which it is today.
- candiodari 4y ago
  Not really, you are assuming the people vote on a lot of decisions, which is not true. This is a problem related to permanence of executive power. The "cardinal Richelieu" problem (You know that while the government changes, he is above the government and stays. Most of the executive does not change at all when power changes hands at the legislative level). Ever notice that executive power is the same everywhere? They think the laws are unfair to them, because they have to implement totally unrealistic laws, and get blamed harshly for "small" problems (you know, "harshly" except it doesn't carry any consequences for them, except, at best loss of face). They respond by not following laws, refusing even to implement judicial directives and the like. Their own (sometimes personal) interest, for them, trumps laws and the directives of judges. They have largely made sure their names are never revealed to the people they serve, as they no longer have the support of the people, and they feel they cannot be replaced.
superchroma 4y ago
Yes. Americans are often selfish, savage and cruel. Not all of them, but enough.
- yeeyeeyee 4y ago
  >Americans are often selfish, savage and cruel. Sorry but wtf?! Read Manufacturing Consent. Don't demonize us. We're not down with this shit.
  - superchroma 4y ago
    Many are, particularly conservatives. Many aren't, and, well, that's good, but there's a significant enough majority who are and so the status quo prevails.
smabie 4y ago
What 5-star hotel costs $250/day? I want to go there
- impossiblefork 4y ago
  There's a bunch in the Canary Islands, with prices like that or below. Even one on Fuertaventura for 200 USD per night. I haven't been to them, so I can't say whether they're up to the level one would expect, but they're listed as five star hotels.
dotancohen 4y ago
Is that not implicit in democracy? Things are the way they are, because the People willed it as such? The actual mechanism probably has many more links including the voting of politicians who share the People's values, who then pass laws in the People's interest. But the underlying axiom of democracy is rule of the People, indirect as the American implementation is, is it not?

rzazueta 4y ago

Depends on how you ask the question. "Is it fair to incarcerate individuals for their preference of intoxicant in a free and liberal democracy?" "Should drug users and other junkies be taken off the streets to keep them safe for the rest of us?"

yeeyeeyee 4y ago
That's not my question. There's exactly one way to ask my question. "Do you think prisoners should be charged $250/night for their incarceration?"
- t-writescode 4y ago
  Oh there’s plenty of other ways you can ask it. “Should prisoners pay the price of their stay in prison, including room, board, food and security?”

MichaelCollins 4y ago

> You're telling me if I asked 100 people on the street, Confronting people on the street with questions like this won't give you a representative sample of what people really think. The sort of people who support the system to maintain their class/lifestyle are likely to ignore your question or to perceive your activist intent and lie to you to avoid getting sucker punched by the 'crazy person on the street.'

voisin 4y ago
I think the poster was making the point of doing a survey. Perhaps not set on the actual method of that survey.
- yeeyeeyee 4y ago
  Yep, I meant #2 from https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/on_the_street https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/on_the_street Idioms are hard! Want to apologize on behalf of the English language.

Jcowell 4y ago

In America ? Yes. I’m willing to bet a good part of the reason why our prisons they way they are is because many see it as a means of revenge and not rehabilitation. No one cares if a rapist or pedo is saddled with debt , much less of they leave out of there alive.

throwaway0a5e 4y ago

Based on the comments in the "NYC is owed a bajillion dollars in parking tickets" thread from a couple days ago I bet you could get an easy dozen if you just dropped the phrase "five star hotel prices". People are strongly in favor of harsh punishments for the type of crimes they don't ever see themselves committing, like not paying a ticket apparently.

bobthepanda 4y ago
The NYC parking tickets thing has a few other dimensions, like the fact that the worst scofflaws are actually the diplomatic corps of other countries (there for the UN) that claim immunity to avoid having to pay the tickets. So not only do you get to bash elites, they’re other country’s elites and not countries that the US has warm relations with. There was actually a sigh of relief in many circles when New York lost the 2012 Olympics bid, because many people did not see the benefit of holding the games being worth the massive headaches of infrastructure overload.
- greedo 4y ago
  Don't forget the members of New York's finest; the NYPD is well known for abusing parking on a consistent basis.

DisjointedHunt 4y ago

It’s insane. Prison conditions in the US are infamous for the degrading of the human experience to a point of no return. Open rape culture, radicalization, utterly despicable behavior that even barbarians would shiver at openly covered in popular culture as fact. As someone who grew up outside the US, it is truly astonishing how fucked up the system is.

selectodude 4y ago
That’s pretty normal for prison culture worldwide. US prisons are far less inhumane than, say, France.
- trasz 4y ago
  French prisons use slave labour?
  - selectodude 4y ago
    Oui.
    - trasz 4y ago
      Can you give me some reference, or a keyword? I can’t find much about it; what I found is that they can work and get paid, but I didn’t find anything about being forced to.

shakezula 4y ago

This is a problem of Stated preference vs. Revealed preference. You ask them what they think and they'd tell you "that's awful, I can't believe that, that's so unfair" but you put them up on the ballot at the midterms and get them to repeal it and all of a sudden it's about being "tough on crime" and "keeping our streets clean".

bobthepanda 4y ago
Also, prisons are often located in depressed small town as a stable source of government jobs. Those people don’t want to go back to being in a depressed economy. The most extreme example of this is that the site of the 1970 Lake Placid Winter Olympics was designed to be used post games as a prison, which it is today.
candiodari 4y ago
Not really, you are assuming the people vote on a lot of decisions, which is not true. This is a problem related to permanence of executive power. The "cardinal Richelieu" problem (You know that while the government changes, he is above the government and stays. Most of the executive does not change at all when power changes hands at the legislative level). Ever notice that executive power is the same everywhere? They think the laws are unfair to them, because they have to implement totally unrealistic laws, and get blamed harshly for "small" problems (you know, "harshly" except it doesn't carry any consequences for them, except, at best loss of face). They respond by not following laws, refusing even to implement judicial directives and the like. Their own (sometimes personal) interest, for them, trumps laws and the directives of judges. They have largely made sure their names are never revealed to the people they serve, as they no longer have the support of the people, and they feel they cannot be replaced.

superchroma 4y ago

Yes. Americans are often selfish, savage and cruel. Not all of them, but enough.

yeeyeeyee 4y ago
>Americans are often selfish, savage and cruel. Sorry but wtf?! Read Manufacturing Consent. Don't demonize us. We're not down with this shit.
- superchroma 4y ago
  Many are, particularly conservatives. Many aren't, and, well, that's good, but there's a significant enough majority who are and so the status quo prevails.

smabie 4y ago

What 5-star hotel costs $250/day? I want to go there

impossiblefork 4y ago
There's a bunch in the Canary Islands, with prices like that or below. Even one on Fuertaventura for 200 USD per night. I haven't been to them, so I can't say whether they're up to the level one would expect, but they're listed as five star hotels.

dotancohen 4y ago

Is that not implicit in democracy? Things are the way they are, because the People willed it as such? The actual mechanism probably has many more links including the voting of politicians who share the People's values, who then pass laws in the People's interest. But the underlying axiom of democracy is rule of the People, indirect as the American implementation is, is it not?