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This reasoning does not hold up. Science does not claim the universe needs a cause to come into existance. Your premise is already wrong. Science tries to come

by eis 4y ago

This reasoning does not hold up. Science does not claim the universe needs a cause to come into existance. Your premise is already wrong. Science tries to come up with explanations for the observed reality in our universe. It does not claim to know what is outside the observable universe or what laws of physics exist or don't exist there. You follow the extremely common logical fallacy that because you want there to be a reason for the universe and you wanting there to be something before the universe then that means there has to be a god? A big leap based on unproven assumptions. Who says time does not extend outside the universe? Where's the proof that a universe can't cause itself? Why can't it be governed by the same laws? Science does not claim to have all the answers but just then jumping to the conclusion that there has to be a god? Nah. What if there indeed was a God but is now gone? What makes you assume that he cares about us and our morals? What would he think of people that claim he has spoken to them? Why would he create all the sickness and pain in the world? Would it mean there's some extremely sick and perverted being out there that just likes to watch innocent women being raped? Clearly he could prevent that. But then again why do religions assume that their god is good willing? Clearly he can't be that with all the shit going on because if he willed it into existance then all that is on him.

judah 4y ago
> "Where's the proof that a universe can't cause itself" What we observe in nature. Everything in nature that begins to exist was caused by something else. (Some have suggested quantum exceptions to this rule, but even those claims are tenuous at best.) The best observable evidence we have is that everything that begins to exist must be caused. While atheist philosophers like Bertrand Russel once believed the universe was eternal -- and therefore didn't need to be caused -- it was the Big Bang theory that proved otherwise. The universe had a beginning, therefore it has a cause. My conviction, then, is that God really does exist, and the he caused the universe to exist. > "Clearly he could prevent that...clearly he can't be [good] with all the shit going on" You're entering territory that philosophers and theologians have been discussing for millenia. I won't pretend to have the real answer for you, but one answer I've found reasonable is that if God prevents evil, He also prevents free choice; free will. It is better to exist in a world with free will -- even if it means some people abuse that for evil -- than to exist in a world where free will doesn't exist. On the same theme of evil and suffering, what is more problematic is if God doesn't exist, then evil is subjective. Only if God exists and right from wrong are legislated by God do we have a grounded morality, one where we can definitely say what is good and what is evil.
- eis 4y ago
  > What we observe in nature. Everything in nature that begins to exist was caused by something else. (Some have suggested quantum exceptions to this rule, but even those claims are tenuous at best.) > The best observable evidence we have is that everything that begins to exist must be caused. Inside our observable universe? Yea most likely. We can't deduce that the same hold true outside the universe. Einstein explained that nothing can move faster than light but the universe seems to be expanding faster than light so clearly the universe itself can follow different rules and of course anything theoretically outside of it could do pretty much anything for all we know (since we don't know anything about it). > While atheist philosophers like Bertrand Russel once believed the universe was eternal -- and therefore didn't need to be caused -- it was the Big Bang theory that proved otherwise. The universe had a beginning, therefore it has a cause. My conviction, then, is that God really does exist, and the he caused the universe to exist. The big bang theory is not proven. That's what the video of the article talks about. It's a hypothesis amongst many about the origin of our universe. If you base your conviction of the existance of god on the big bang theory... I dunno what to say. Why does god follow from big bang? Just because there was a cause? Imagine you are an ant living inside a box. You never see anything outside the box. I've put the ants inside the box. You as an ant might believe something must have created the box. Even if that were true (which you can't prove from inside the box) then clearly that does not mean I am god, right? I couldn't care less about the beliefs of the ants and I have no idea if they worship me or not. But maybe they built a whole faith in me and a system of rules because one ant claims I spoke to it in its dreams. Reality though is that they are simply wrong and just made a whole lot of wrong assumptions. > You're entering territory that philosophers and theologians have been discussing for millenia. And they still didn't come up with an answer. Likely never will. > I won't pretend to have the real answer for you, but one answer I've found reasonable is that if God prevents evil, He also prevents free choice; free will. It is better to exist in a world with free will -- even if it means some people abuse that for evil -- than to exist in a world where free will doesn't exist. You can make some interesting thought experiments regarding that. If god created beings with free will then that means he can't be omnipotent because the beings are not bound by his will. If it is not his will but free will and as you said everything must have a cause... then what is the cause for our free decisions? Does that mean it is arbitrary? Random? If so then there is something outside of god and all he created. What is it? Or does free will mean there is no ultimate cause? You called people doing evil an abuse of free will. But why is it abuse if god wanted it to be like that? Doesn't it mean that god wanted evil to exist? Otherwise he'd create a system with free will but with evil excluded. We would never know about evil being missing since he completely removed it from our reality. In the same line of thinking how would we know if we have true free will? What if there was a third thing next to good and evil? How can we know we have free will? And how can we say it is better to have free will than not? If I gave you the choice of living a life in which 100% of days you are happy or a life in which on random days you will be unhappy, which life would you choose? > On the same theme of evil and suffering, what is more problematic is if God doesn't exist, then evil is subjective. Only if God exists and right from wrong are legislated by God do we have a grounded morality, one where we can definitely say what is good and what is evil. Nope that is not true. We can have morals and ethics without god. You are accusing me of not having a grounded morality because I am not a theist which I find really offensive. Morals can emerge from simple logical arguments that will strive for the survival of our species and a well working society. Good and bad are actually subjective. Muslims will find me eating pork as bad. For christians it wouldn't be bad. For christians it would be really bad if I had multiple wifes while muslims would be OK with it. Who is right and who is wrong? If you pick either one then you claim that some religions are correct and others wrong. How did you decide which ones are the correct ones? It also means there can only be one final true religion because if there are two religions then they must differ in something and both can't be right at the same time. You say god legislates what is good and bad. Ignoring that different religions as outlined above disagree about what is good or bad, how exactly do we know for sure that the claimed laws have been handed by god? That someone pronounces so is not good enough. Do animals who seem to also have a system of good and bad have religous believes? My dog feels really guilty when he makes a mess. Who told him about god and that he shall not make a mess?

by eis 4y ago

judah 4y ago

> "Where's the proof that a universe can't cause itself" What we observe in nature. Everything in nature that begins to exist was caused by something else. (Some have suggested quantum exceptions to this rule, but even those claims are tenuous at best.) The best observable evidence we have is that everything that begins to exist must be caused. While atheist philosophers like Bertrand Russel once believed the universe was eternal -- and therefore didn't need to be caused -- it was the Big Bang theory that proved otherwise. The universe had a beginning, therefore it has a cause. My conviction, then, is that God really does exist, and the he caused the universe to exist. > "Clearly he could prevent that...clearly he can't be [good] with all the shit going on" You're entering territory that philosophers and theologians have been discussing for millenia. I won't pretend to have the real answer for you, but one answer I've found reasonable is that if God prevents evil, He also prevents free choice; free will. It is better to exist in a world with free will -- even if it means some people abuse that for evil -- than to exist in a world where free will doesn't exist. On the same theme of evil and suffering, what is more problematic is if God doesn't exist, then evil is subjective. Only if God exists and right from wrong are legislated by God do we have a grounded morality, one where we can definitely say what is good and what is evil.

eis 4y ago
> What we observe in nature. Everything in nature that begins to exist was caused by something else. (Some have suggested quantum exceptions to this rule, but even those claims are tenuous at best.) > The best observable evidence we have is that everything that begins to exist must be caused. Inside our observable universe? Yea most likely. We can't deduce that the same hold true outside the universe. Einstein explained that nothing can move faster than light but the universe seems to be expanding faster than light so clearly the universe itself can follow different rules and of course anything theoretically outside of it could do pretty much anything for all we know (since we don't know anything about it). > While atheist philosophers like Bertrand Russel once believed the universe was eternal -- and therefore didn't need to be caused -- it was the Big Bang theory that proved otherwise. The universe had a beginning, therefore it has a cause. My conviction, then, is that God really does exist, and the he caused the universe to exist. The big bang theory is not proven. That's what the video of the article talks about. It's a hypothesis amongst many about the origin of our universe. If you base your conviction of the existance of god on the big bang theory... I dunno what to say. Why does god follow from big bang? Just because there was a cause? Imagine you are an ant living inside a box. You never see anything outside the box. I've put the ants inside the box. You as an ant might believe something must have created the box. Even if that were true (which you can't prove from inside the box) then clearly that does not mean I am god, right? I couldn't care less about the beliefs of the ants and I have no idea if they worship me or not. But maybe they built a whole faith in me and a system of rules because one ant claims I spoke to it in its dreams. Reality though is that they are simply wrong and just made a whole lot of wrong assumptions. > You're entering territory that philosophers and theologians have been discussing for millenia. And they still didn't come up with an answer. Likely never will. > I won't pretend to have the real answer for you, but one answer I've found reasonable is that if God prevents evil, He also prevents free choice; free will. It is better to exist in a world with free will -- even if it means some people abuse that for evil -- than to exist in a world where free will doesn't exist. You can make some interesting thought experiments regarding that. If god created beings with free will then that means he can't be omnipotent because the beings are not bound by his will. If it is not his will but free will and as you said everything must have a cause... then what is the cause for our free decisions? Does that mean it is arbitrary? Random? If so then there is something outside of god and all he created. What is it? Or does free will mean there is no ultimate cause? You called people doing evil an abuse of free will. But why is it abuse if god wanted it to be like that? Doesn't it mean that god wanted evil to exist? Otherwise he'd create a system with free will but with evil excluded. We would never know about evil being missing since he completely removed it from our reality. In the same line of thinking how would we know if we have true free will? What if there was a third thing next to good and evil? How can we know we have free will? And how can we say it is better to have free will than not? If I gave you the choice of living a life in which 100% of days you are happy or a life in which on random days you will be unhappy, which life would you choose? > On the same theme of evil and suffering, what is more problematic is if God doesn't exist, then evil is subjective. Only if God exists and right from wrong are legislated by God do we have a grounded morality, one where we can definitely say what is good and what is evil. Nope that is not true. We can have morals and ethics without god. You are accusing me of not having a grounded morality because I am not a theist which I find really offensive. Morals can emerge from simple logical arguments that will strive for the survival of our species and a well working society. Good and bad are actually subjective. Muslims will find me eating pork as bad. For christians it wouldn't be bad. For christians it would be really bad if I had multiple wifes while muslims would be OK with it. Who is right and who is wrong? If you pick either one then you claim that some religions are correct and others wrong. How did you decide which ones are the correct ones? It also means there can only be one final true religion because if there are two religions then they must differ in something and both can't be right at the same time. You say god legislates what is good and bad. Ignoring that different religions as outlined above disagree about what is good or bad, how exactly do we know for sure that the claimed laws have been handed by god? That someone pronounces so is not good enough. Do animals who seem to also have a system of good and bad have religous believes? My dog feels really guilty when he makes a mess. Who told him about god and that he shall not make a mess?