4 ms·

> It’s hard to imagine, say, the US military being audited by an independent authority that is able to look at classified documents like battle plans, or new we

> It’s hard to imagine, say, the US military being audited by an independent authority that is able to look at classified documents like battle plans, or new weapons technologies. It's easy to imagine if you restore the Constitutional authority of civilian management of the military (and all other aspects of government). A reasonably responsible US voter should have nothing hidden from them, even military secrets. >In other words “I won’t accept anything that contradicts my pre-established belief”. I'm sorry, how many secret military documents have you personally seen?

ericmay 4y ago
> I'm sorry, how many secret military documents have you personally seen? Quite a few. I was on active duty in the US Army and deployed to Iraq where we planned and conducted air assault and VIP transport missions. I also had TS-SCI clearance. > It's easy to imagine if you restore the Constitutional authority of civilian management of the military (and all other aspects of government). A reasonably responsible US voter should have nothing hidden from them, even military secrets. Yea sure. Totally. Nuclear secrets, CIA operative locations, all plans and contingencies and movement of assets across the globe. Hell maybe I can take a UH-60 for a spin. My tax dollars paid for it!
- someguydave 4y ago
  >Quite a few Good, then you know that everything classified is only for protecting important things and not hiding embarrassing things right? >Yea sure. Totally. Nuclear secrets, CIA operative locations, all plans and contingencies and movement of assets across the globe. Why not? The point of a clearance is to prevent foreign spying, not government oversight. Do you not believe all Americans are equal before the law?
  - ericmay 4y ago
    It's an oversimplification, and I'm not sure what you are referencing w.r.t "embarrassing things". > Why not?... Do you not believe all Americans are equal before the law? I think the absurdity of your suggestion speaks for itself.
    - someguydave 4y ago
      > absurdity Interesting. What is absurd about the people understanding exactly what the government is doing?
      - ericmay 4y ago
        It's not interesting. You know exactly why it would be absurd for everyday Americans to be able to have access to things like nuclear weapon launch codes or schematics, or be able to post the location of CIA operatives on Tik Tok, or know the exact locations and deployment schedule for military forces, or where the president would be at any given hour, or... any number of things. If you take your line of reasoning/questioning here to its conclusion you'd also wonder why can't an American walk on to an airfield and fly a Blackhawk away? What's so absurd about people using the things their tax dollars pay for? To deny that scenario is to admit that the government has the ability to keep things away from citizens, and you can clearly see how this extends to military or national security secrets as well. Framing this as "what's so wrong with the lil ole' people knowing a few things the government is hiding" is disingenuous at best. And if you wanted to make a concrete argument about "no secrets" you would make an attempt to do so abstracted away from the current geopolitical reality of the world because it's extremely obvious why this not only wouldn't ever occur but also shouldn't occur in the reality that we experience today. Idealism is only useful to the extent that it is also pragmatic. A better principle here would be something like maximizing the amount of information that American citizens have access to (why limit it to Americans and America though? Why can't I have access to all Chinese documents?) excluding national defense capabilities or some realistic parameter/line.
        someguydave 4y ago
        The first words of the Constitution are “we the people” which identifies that sovereign power from which the government derives its power and legitimacy. I do not wish to abolish secrets - merely to make it clear that US citizens are the rulers of the country and therefore nothing should be kept from them. I can imagine many ways that could be done without the kinds of dire consequences you extrapolate.

ericmay 4y ago

> I'm sorry, how many secret military documents have you personally seen? Quite a few. I was on active duty in the US Army and deployed to Iraq where we planned and conducted air assault and VIP transport missions. I also had TS-SCI clearance. > It's easy to imagine if you restore the Constitutional authority of civilian management of the military (and all other aspects of government). A reasonably responsible US voter should have nothing hidden from them, even military secrets. Yea sure. Totally. Nuclear secrets, CIA operative locations, all plans and contingencies and movement of assets across the globe. Hell maybe I can take a UH-60 for a spin. My tax dollars paid for it!

someguydave 4y ago
>Quite a few Good, then you know that everything classified is only for protecting important things and not hiding embarrassing things right? >Yea sure. Totally. Nuclear secrets, CIA operative locations, all plans and contingencies and movement of assets across the globe. Why not? The point of a clearance is to prevent foreign spying, not government oversight. Do you not believe all Americans are equal before the law?
- ericmay 4y ago
  It's an oversimplification, and I'm not sure what you are referencing w.r.t "embarrassing things". > Why not?... Do you not believe all Americans are equal before the law? I think the absurdity of your suggestion speaks for itself.
  - someguydave 4y ago
    > absurdity Interesting. What is absurd about the people understanding exactly what the government is doing?
    - ericmay 4y ago
      It's not interesting. You know exactly why it would be absurd for everyday Americans to be able to have access to things like nuclear weapon launch codes or schematics, or be able to post the location of CIA operatives on Tik Tok, or know the exact locations and deployment schedule for military forces, or where the president would be at any given hour, or... any number of things. If you take your line of reasoning/questioning here to its conclusion you'd also wonder why can't an American walk on to an airfield and fly a Blackhawk away? What's so absurd about people using the things their tax dollars pay for? To deny that scenario is to admit that the government has the ability to keep things away from citizens, and you can clearly see how this extends to military or national security secrets as well. Framing this as "what's so wrong with the lil ole' people knowing a few things the government is hiding" is disingenuous at best. And if you wanted to make a concrete argument about "no secrets" you would make an attempt to do so abstracted away from the current geopolitical reality of the world because it's extremely obvious why this not only wouldn't ever occur but also shouldn't occur in the reality that we experience today. Idealism is only useful to the extent that it is also pragmatic. A better principle here would be something like maximizing the amount of information that American citizens have access to (why limit it to Americans and America though? Why can't I have access to all Chinese documents?) excluding national defense capabilities or some realistic parameter/line.
      - someguydave 4y ago
        The first words of the Constitution are “we the people” which identifies that sovereign power from which the government derives its power and legitimacy. I do not wish to abolish secrets - merely to make it clear that US citizens are the rulers of the country and therefore nothing should be kept from them. I can imagine many ways that could be done without the kinds of dire consequences you extrapolate.