5 ms·

Germany’s obsession with solar and wind is absolutely baffling. It takes very little to know that Germany simply does not have the conditions for large scale so

by spaceman_2020 4y ago

Germany’s obsession with solar and wind is absolutely baffling. It takes very little to know that Germany simply does not have the conditions for large scale solar. Yet it was pushed so heavily in lieu of nuclear power. Absurd.

number6 4y ago
Nuclear isn't going well for France right now. And most of the EU uran comes from Russia
- spaceman_2020 4y ago
  Yeah but nuclear fuel can be sourced from elsewhere - it does not have the steep physical barriers of nat gas. And any existing nuclear power issues can be solved. The amount of sunlight your receive, however, will always be the same.
  - number6 4y ago
    How do you solve that the rivers are too hot to cool the reactors to produce more energy?
    - ClumsyPilot 4y ago
      We have built reactors in literal deserts, but the cooling system needs to bw different ofcourse https://min.news/en/tech/30bdf6748162428883857d361132e177.html https://min.news/en/tech/30bdf6748162428883857d361132e177.ht...
    - voqv 4y ago
      This meme has to end, there’s only one nuclear power plant in France (Blayais) that has no cooling towers, and another 4 have to occasionally throttle power output due to ecological concerns (used water is too hot, they currently have temporary exceptions).
    - pyrale 4y ago
      The water is never too hot to cool the reactors, it's too hot to release back into the river, for environmental reasons. Evaporative cooling solves that problem, but then you "lose" water, which is never great in a heat wave. A nuclear plant using sea water never stops due to heat waves, because it can dilute any amount of hot water.
      - ZeroGravitas 4y ago
        The water can get too hot and/or short in supply to cool the nuclear plant. It's not magic, it's a machine with design limits that extreme weather events can push up against. It also can pollute rivers and kill fish before it gets to that level. Sea cooled reactors have issues with jellyfish. Having said that, the EU needs more gas in winter when it's cold, so doing the maintenance/refueling in the summer makes sense. Still doesn't change the basic facts that a mix of solar/wind etc. is cheaper and better than nuclear and the annoying 'nuclear isn't affected by the weather' meme is wrong.
        effie 4y ago
        You forgot storage or massive long distance transportation that nuclear future does not require, but solar/wind future does. That changes the "cheaper and better" to "there is no cheap solution, we need both solar/wind and nuclear".
        pyrale 4y ago
        > It's not magic, it's a machine with design limits that extreme weather events can push up against. We have yet to see 80°c water in the rivers upstream. As I said earlier, the issue is never cooling the reactor, it's always about the state of the environment downstream.
- synotna2 4y ago
  > Nuclear isn't going well for France right now. And most of the EU uran comes from Russia Even not doing well it's better then Germany's wind and solar - it's rare to see Germany electricity polluting going below 4x France - not to mention coal whose transportation is also affected by low water levels
makomk 4y ago
Meanwhile over here in the UK, the press is blaming the energy crisis partly on the fact that our government didn't spend loads of money on solar and onshore wind like Germany. We're even worse situated to benefit from solar than they are. (The renewable program here is mostly focused on offshore wind, which is the least-bad option given our geography, plus attempts at nuclear that are widely criticized by the press as wastes of money given how much cheaper onshore wind and solar are.)
- ClumsyPilot 4y ago
  Britain is the best position country in Europe for wind and tidal power. There was a project to pay down cable to import reliable, cheap 24/7 power from Iceland and hobernment said 'nah'. They also cancelled a 340 MW tidal project
  - throwaway2037 4y ago
    Real question: What is the largest tidal power installation in the world? Why do we see so little of it?
    - ZeroGravitas 4y ago
      I think there's a 2MW test turbine off Scotland which I think is the biggest in the world. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-57991351 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-she... Just not as cost effective as wind, which got to piggyback of onshore turbine development.
    - wongarsu 4y ago
      We don't see large tidal power installations because they are not every economical so far. In theory there's a lot of energy to be won, but the salt water causes corrosion issues, and maintenance gets expensive quickly
      - ClumsyPilot 4y ago
MomoXenosaga 4y ago
In an ideal world countries like Spain and Greece invest in solar but they're completely incompetent. So you get the absurd situation that the Netherlands is European leader in solar energy lol. Most densely populated country in Europe has solar parks for fuck sake.
- bostik 4y ago
  From what I've read, in Spain there was for a long time (may still be?) pretty effective/expensive legislation against installing solar panels anywhere. Reason? Regulatory capture, with energy companies lobbying hard against anything that might weaken their position or profiteering opportunities. I wouldn't call that necessarily incompetence. Corruption and cronyism, yes.
  - gordaco 4y ago
    Yes, for a few years we had what was popularly called "Sun tax" in order to disincentivise people from installing solar panels in their homes. It was removed in 2018, though. Although corruption was probably present, I would say that this kind of politics is precisely what we would expect from pro-business parties (in this case, the People's Party). They do have a long history of eschewing environmental policies as soon as any big company has money to lose because of them.
- kyriakos 4y ago
  I live in Cyprus which experiences sunshine almost 365 days a year and has an isolated power grid from the rest of the world. We also suffer from the incompetency of Greece and Spain but I believe solar parks are not the solution. Building solar parks is a waste of land which could be used for other purposes (agriculture for example). A much better solution is to ensure every single building has solar panels on its roof. Until recently there was no incentive or motivation for this but during the past 6 months with increasing electricity costs there has been a shift to PV to the point that cost of setup has almost doubled but people are still installing them. We're heading in the right direction but it will take years for energy independence.
raverbashing 4y ago
And yet, right now, solar is 20% of the electricity on the grid in Germany. Wind is 15% (per the electrictymaps app) Sure it would be better if it was a sunnier place, still...
- spaceman_2020 4y ago
  You should see how much they’ve invested in solar to hit that mark, and how much capacity is being unutilized
  - raverbashing 4y ago
    Top utilization of solar was approximately 25% of the installed base today At the same time, 49% of nuclear in France is being used today and 62% of nuclear in the UK So, it's "bad" but not everything is used 100% all the time
    - spaceman_2020 4y ago
      The thing is, on a perfect day, Germany has enough solar capacity to fulfill almost all of its electricity needs. But that perfect day is rare, largely because of Germany’s climate. So you have a situation where you have to essentially install over 100% of your needs in solar. You’re overspending for suboptimum results.
      - adgjlsfhk1 4y ago
        yes you overbuild, but solar is still one of the cheapest girls is electricity even when you consider the necessary overbuilding.
  - imhoguy 4y ago
    And how much all that solar equipment garbage is going to be disposed soon.
  - teamonkey 4y ago
    Maybe you could show us with a source?

number6 4y ago

Nuclear isn't going well for France right now. And most of the EU uran comes from Russia

spaceman_2020 4y ago
Yeah but nuclear fuel can be sourced from elsewhere - it does not have the steep physical barriers of nat gas. And any existing nuclear power issues can be solved. The amount of sunlight your receive, however, will always be the same.
- number6 4y ago
  How do you solve that the rivers are too hot to cool the reactors to produce more energy?
  - ClumsyPilot 4y ago
    We have built reactors in literal deserts, but the cooling system needs to bw different ofcourse https://min.news/en/tech/30bdf6748162428883857d361132e177.html https://min.news/en/tech/30bdf6748162428883857d361132e177.ht...
  - voqv 4y ago
    This meme has to end, there’s only one nuclear power plant in France (Blayais) that has no cooling towers, and another 4 have to occasionally throttle power output due to ecological concerns (used water is too hot, they currently have temporary exceptions).
  - pyrale 4y ago
    The water is never too hot to cool the reactors, it's too hot to release back into the river, for environmental reasons. Evaporative cooling solves that problem, but then you "lose" water, which is never great in a heat wave. A nuclear plant using sea water never stops due to heat waves, because it can dilute any amount of hot water.
    - ZeroGravitas 4y ago
      The water can get too hot and/or short in supply to cool the nuclear plant. It's not magic, it's a machine with design limits that extreme weather events can push up against. It also can pollute rivers and kill fish before it gets to that level. Sea cooled reactors have issues with jellyfish. Having said that, the EU needs more gas in winter when it's cold, so doing the maintenance/refueling in the summer makes sense. Still doesn't change the basic facts that a mix of solar/wind etc. is cheaper and better than nuclear and the annoying 'nuclear isn't affected by the weather' meme is wrong.
      - effie 4y ago
        You forgot storage or massive long distance transportation that nuclear future does not require, but solar/wind future does. That changes the "cheaper and better" to "there is no cheap solution, we need both solar/wind and nuclear".
      - pyrale 4y ago
        > It's not magic, it's a machine with design limits that extreme weather events can push up against. We have yet to see 80°c water in the rivers upstream. As I said earlier, the issue is never cooling the reactor, it's always about the state of the environment downstream.
synotna2 4y ago
> Nuclear isn't going well for France right now. And most of the EU uran comes from Russia Even not doing well it's better then Germany's wind and solar - it's rare to see Germany electricity polluting going below 4x France - not to mention coal whose transportation is also affected by low water levels

makomk 4y ago

Meanwhile over here in the UK, the press is blaming the energy crisis partly on the fact that our government didn't spend loads of money on solar and onshore wind like Germany. We're even worse situated to benefit from solar than they are. (The renewable program here is mostly focused on offshore wind, which is the least-bad option given our geography, plus attempts at nuclear that are widely criticized by the press as wastes of money given how much cheaper onshore wind and solar are.)

ClumsyPilot 4y ago
Britain is the best position country in Europe for wind and tidal power. There was a project to pay down cable to import reliable, cheap 24/7 power from Iceland and hobernment said 'nah'. They also cancelled a 340 MW tidal project
- throwaway2037 4y ago
  Real question: What is the largest tidal power installation in the world? Why do we see so little of it?
  - ZeroGravitas 4y ago
    I think there's a 2MW test turbine off Scotland which I think is the biggest in the world. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-57991351 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-she... Just not as cost effective as wind, which got to piggyback of onshore turbine development.
  - wongarsu 4y ago
    We don't see large tidal power installations because they are not every economical so far. In theory there's a lot of energy to be won, but the salt water causes corrosion issues, and maintenance gets expensive quickly
    - ClumsyPilot 4y ago

MomoXenosaga 4y ago

In an ideal world countries like Spain and Greece invest in solar but they're completely incompetent. So you get the absurd situation that the Netherlands is European leader in solar energy lol. Most densely populated country in Europe has solar parks for fuck sake.

bostik 4y ago
From what I've read, in Spain there was for a long time (may still be?) pretty effective/expensive legislation against installing solar panels anywhere. Reason? Regulatory capture, with energy companies lobbying hard against anything that might weaken their position or profiteering opportunities. I wouldn't call that necessarily incompetence. Corruption and cronyism, yes.
- gordaco 4y ago
  Yes, for a few years we had what was popularly called "Sun tax" in order to disincentivise people from installing solar panels in their homes. It was removed in 2018, though. Although corruption was probably present, I would say that this kind of politics is precisely what we would expect from pro-business parties (in this case, the People's Party). They do have a long history of eschewing environmental policies as soon as any big company has money to lose because of them.
kyriakos 4y ago
I live in Cyprus which experiences sunshine almost 365 days a year and has an isolated power grid from the rest of the world. We also suffer from the incompetency of Greece and Spain but I believe solar parks are not the solution. Building solar parks is a waste of land which could be used for other purposes (agriculture for example). A much better solution is to ensure every single building has solar panels on its roof. Until recently there was no incentive or motivation for this but during the past 6 months with increasing electricity costs there has been a shift to PV to the point that cost of setup has almost doubled but people are still installing them. We're heading in the right direction but it will take years for energy independence.

raverbashing 4y ago

And yet, right now, solar is 20% of the electricity on the grid in Germany. Wind is 15% (per the electrictymaps app) Sure it would be better if it was a sunnier place, still...

spaceman_2020 4y ago
You should see how much they’ve invested in solar to hit that mark, and how much capacity is being unutilized
- raverbashing 4y ago
  Top utilization of solar was approximately 25% of the installed base today At the same time, 49% of nuclear in France is being used today and 62% of nuclear in the UK So, it's "bad" but not everything is used 100% all the time
  - spaceman_2020 4y ago
    The thing is, on a perfect day, Germany has enough solar capacity to fulfill almost all of its electricity needs. But that perfect day is rare, largely because of Germany’s climate. So you have a situation where you have to essentially install over 100% of your needs in solar. You’re overspending for suboptimum results.
    - adgjlsfhk1 4y ago
      yes you overbuild, but solar is still one of the cheapest girls is electricity even when you consider the necessary overbuilding.
- imhoguy 4y ago
  And how much all that solar equipment garbage is going to be disposed soon.
- teamonkey 4y ago
  Maybe you could show us with a source?