4 ms·

Tell HN: Linux Mint support IRC appears to me captured by juvenile moderators

12 points by paulnpace 4y ago

I am a moderator in a small open source project support forum completely unrelated to Linux Mint, so my below discussion is not about me whining over a ban, but a discussion about how unprofessional the Linux Mint IRC support channel is and the way the Linux Mint project has permitted a default tool in the OS to become captured by moderators engaged in what I view as very juvenile behavior. In #linuxmint-help I was pinged by a user, and on discovery I reviewed the user's activity, and it was comprised primarily of pinging other users, including pinging users within seconds of the user's first posts and as the subsequent post. I then posted to the channel: > User respawn is spamming. Please ban. To which the moderator responded by banning my user with the following comment: > User banned per user request. This is a snarky ban reason and it is provided without explanation to the user. I also interpret the moderator enjoys the employment of the ban tool, instead of viewing the ban tool as necessary under certain circumstances. After being banned, I was pinged in #linuxmint-chat by the same moderator: > or maybe he's asking to get banned like that paul guy The post I was pinged from was part of a discussion of moderators and other users are friendly with were mocking another recently banned user, and then began mocking me. My tone with the moderators may be overly firm for a user not part of their clique, but as a somewhat experienced user I was very annoyed with their behavior (and was pinged into the discussion): > respawn pinged me. If you can't read your feed, you have no business moderating an IRC. There are further posts and both threads can be viewed in the screencap I posted in Linuxmint GitHub[1], but another moderator chimes in: > who wants to kick or ban this wanker? The combination of snarky reason for initial ban along with overy-chummy clique mocking banning of users is not the kind of tool I feel should be default in a highly visible user-facing open source project. I recommend Mint to friends and help them migrate. When I help them migrate, I teach them about the IRC support that is default in the OS. I do not want to have referred anyone to an IRC channel with moderators like the ones running #linuxmint-help. I first posted to the Linux Mint forums, but my post was immediately removed by a forum moderator. I decided to create the GitHub issue because I believe this is a development issue due to the fact that this channel is a default part of the OS. The GitHub issue includes a user who has something to do with the IRC server. The user seems trying to manipulate the facts, but I make no assumptions on motive. They leave out important information, there is a long discussion on topics not relevant to the discussion, they appear unfamiliar overall with IRC, and end the discussion when I point out these things. The GitHub issue was not intended to sort out specifics of rules in IRC, but to discuss a default tool in the OS that I feel should be removed or changed. The issue is closed with a link to the forum post on how to sort out issues with IRC, which is to contact the IRC moderators, whom I view as likely incapable of reasonable discussion. The issue is locked. To me, this indicates that for whatever reason, the project is currently captured by people who are very unprofessional moderators, extending out across support options (GitHub, forums, and IRC), and likely this issue is difficult for inexperienced users to communicate and other more experienced users to discover. So I am trying to find others who both agree and disagree with me, as I am blocked from discussing the issue with anyone outside of the IRC channels. Again, I am not complaining about the rules. I am complaining about the behavior of moderators in a support channel that is default in the operating system. [1] https://github.com/linuxmint/linuxmint/issues/518

paulnpace 4y ago
For those not familiar with Linux Mint, the OS comes with HexChat IRC client installed and by default when opened logs into #linuxmint-help. I usually have HexChat open and monitor for both problems that might affect me and possibly I can help someone, but since I'm really not a desktop guy, I am able to offer little support, so mostly I am there as a lurker. For those not familiar with IRC, a ping[1] from another user in a channel results in a notification from the IRC client, which in a desktop means the client starts blinking. It is a common troll activity in IRC channels to either overtly ping users randomly or seek excuses to make it appear as if the troll accidentally pinged a user. My experience in IRC is that the moderators instaban these trolls even without any complaints from the users who were pinged. I've never read this, but I believe this is because when logged into many channels simultaneously, the number of pings could be very annoying, so each channel needs to be completely on top of this negative behavior. It is notable that I did incorrectly state my IP address was banned. The server seems to not accept logins from the "Guest" user in Linux Mint, which I did not know until further testing, which was after the issue was closed. [1] I may be using ping a little differently, perhaps it is "mention"
superchroma 4y ago
So you're trying to find people who had similarly bad experiences, and what? Denounce the project? Cancel the IRC admins; to try to apply pressure to anybody who will listen to get some half hearted disciplinary action for the people that banned you? What exactly are you trying to achieve here?
- paulnpace 4y ago
  Just what I stated, to inform ("tell") people. I suspect this isn't the behavior people think about when they recommend the IRC for support for new users.
  - superchroma 4y ago
    Great. Raising awareness. At the end of the day, it's open source, so, a dice roll away from a toxic crapshow, because it's just people doing people stuff. The reality is that commercial entities built empires on this stuff without contributing back and are content to continue to look the other way and pretend this is acceptable, and so open source projects remain as amateur endeavors. At this point, the pragmatist probably stops and asks whether the help channel fulfils its core purpose of dispensing help to those who seek it. Anyway, maybe you should advocate for a code of conduct for the project?

12 points by paulnpace 4y ago

paulnpace 4y ago

For those not familiar with Linux Mint, the OS comes with HexChat IRC client installed and by default when opened logs into #linuxmint-help. I usually have HexChat open and monitor for both problems that might affect me and possibly I can help someone, but since I'm really not a desktop guy, I am able to offer little support, so mostly I am there as a lurker. For those not familiar with IRC, a ping[1] from another user in a channel results in a notification from the IRC client, which in a desktop means the client starts blinking. It is a common troll activity in IRC channels to either overtly ping users randomly or seek excuses to make it appear as if the troll accidentally pinged a user. My experience in IRC is that the moderators instaban these trolls even without any complaints from the users who were pinged. I've never read this, but I believe this is because when logged into many channels simultaneously, the number of pings could be very annoying, so each channel needs to be completely on top of this negative behavior. It is notable that I did incorrectly state my IP address was banned. The server seems to not accept logins from the "Guest" user in Linux Mint, which I did not know until further testing, which was after the issue was closed. [1] I may be using ping a little differently, perhaps it is "mention"

superchroma 4y ago

So you're trying to find people who had similarly bad experiences, and what? Denounce the project? Cancel the IRC admins; to try to apply pressure to anybody who will listen to get some half hearted disciplinary action for the people that banned you? What exactly are you trying to achieve here?

paulnpace 4y ago
Just what I stated, to inform ("tell") people. I suspect this isn't the behavior people think about when they recommend the IRC for support for new users.
- superchroma 4y ago
  Great. Raising awareness. At the end of the day, it's open source, so, a dice roll away from a toxic crapshow, because it's just people doing people stuff. The reality is that commercial entities built empires on this stuff without contributing back and are content to continue to look the other way and pretend this is acceptable, and so open source projects remain as amateur endeavors. At this point, the pragmatist probably stops and asks whether the help channel fulfils its core purpose of dispensing help to those who seek it. Anyway, maybe you should advocate for a code of conduct for the project?