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As someone who owns most of the common satellite phones and data devices available today and sees the antennas on each, I’m sorry, still calling bullshit on thi

As someone who owns most of the common satellite phones and data devices available today and sees the antennas on each, I’m sorry, still calling bullshit on this, just like every previous year this rumor came out.

jsjohnst 4y ago
Guess I need to eat crow... Will be interesting to see how precise you must have your phone pointing towards the satellite.
tra3 4y ago
What about the tmobile/spacex announcement earlier in the week?
- jsjohnst 4y ago
  Iridium flies at about 450mi above the ground, SpaceX/Starlink does a bit lower around 350mi. Both are still a VERY long way to transmit a gigahertz signal, especially unless you are standing in a wide open area with no obstructions of the sky. Iridium uses frequencies well suited for space to ground comms and has specially designed antennas on both ends with high power radios (hence the whip antenna). Even with all that, Iridium is unreliable at best, but better than nothing. So now you want to do that with standard 5G frequencies (which are more impacted by weather), using standard terrestrial phone antennas and radios on the ground, and you expect it to work?
  - tra3 4y ago
    Well, I’ve got a garmin inreach that uses iridium and it’s been quite reliable. Inreach mini is cell phone sized… of course it’s super low bandwidth so I assume that’s what’s gonna happen with the new functionality as well. Anyway all speculation at this point.
    - prescriptivist 4y ago
      I spend a fair amount of time in northern New England and my mini takes a while to connect and sync up (10 minutes or more in some cases) and requires more or less stabilizing it somewhere where there is no tree cover. I wonder if these various satellite/phone connections coming online will require similar steps.
    - katbyte 4y ago
      If my iPhone could replace my inreach for sos/simple texting and data I’d be over the moon. That’s all I want out of sat connectivity
  - blantonl 4y ago
    Iridium and Inmarsat have transponders that are much higher power and have much higher RF bandwidth that supports devices at very low speed data rates. It's very conceivable that with an L-band or similar patch antenna some kind of low speed connectivity can be accomplished with line of sight to the sky via a mobile device. There are already devices sold for hikers etc that operate like this (simple SOS text messaging etc) and sat tracking of vehicles and trucks. A lot of it is store and forward type stuff. As for full voice and high speed data - yeah, that ain't happening yet at the consumer level mobile device.
    - jsjohnst 4y ago
      > There are already devices sold for hikers etc that operate like this (simple SOS text messaging etc) and sat tracking of vehicles and trucks. Yep, I’ve owned a ton of them over the years. My first was the FollowMeSpot device coming up on two decades ago. They’ve of course gotten a lot smaller, but are still definitely “thick fugly bricks” in comparison to Apple’s designs. Looking at tear downs of them, I see absolutely no way you’ll fit the important bits of one inside an iPhone case.
  - fragmede 4y ago
    T-Mobile's likely going to use their 600MhZ spectrum allocation for this, which is lower than the multi-GhZ frequency used by the other parts of the 5G frequencies, and is less impacted by weather and goes further.
    - virtuallynathan 4y ago
      They already said it’s PCS, 1900Mhz.
  - lxgr 4y ago
    Iridium uses the L-band; Globalstar uses the S- and the L-band. 5G phones support frequencies in these bands, and well above and below either.
    - jsjohnst 4y ago
      Inmarsat, Iridium, Thuraya, and Globalstar primarily use L-band. The early PCS allocations and a few later allocations (1900, 1800, 1700) are also L-band, but there’s good reason not to use them for this, they are already heavily in use all over. Satellite cells cover a large area and you don’t want to collide with a tower using the same frequency. The 600-800mhz allocations are not great for satellite broadcast due to limiting characteristics of those bands. So for the 5G bands that would not already heavily be in use and/or aren’t well suited to satellite use, that leaves us C band (3-5ghz), and K/Ku band (mmWave).
bogomipz 4y ago
I'm curious do you work environment require you to have multiple sat phones? For someone who knows nothing about these, what are some of the state of the art choices right now?
- blantonl 4y ago
  Oil and Gas are huge users of Sat phones - there are huge areas of Oil and Gas infrastructure across the country that reside in areas not served by cell phone service. Also, marine (ships, platforms etc)
- jsjohnst 4y ago
  > I'm curious do you work environment require you to have multiple sat phones? No, I’m just a tech geek who had to be emergency airlifted from 11,000ft off a mountain straight to an emergency room. I happened to have an Iridium phone at the time and it’s what likely saved my life (no cell phones worked there). Since then, I’ve been interested in something better and so have done a bunch of research trying brands over the years and have settled in on a few devices I find best for my needs.
  - bogomipz 4y ago
    >"Since then, I’ve been interested in something better and so have done a bunch of research trying brands over the years and have settled in on a few devices I find best for my needs." Could you share some of your recommendations or what your research has uncovered?
CharlesW 4y ago
> …I’m sorry, still calling bullshit on this, just like every previous year this rumor came out. To me, the bizarrely premature T-Mobile/SpaceX pre-announcement ("beta in select areas by the end of 2023") makes a lot more sense if they felt they needed to beat Apple's announcement. But I'm still mystified by this for two reasons: (1) Apple doesn't/can't do niche. So either all customers will get this benefit for free, or it'll be another checklist feature of iCloud+ and/or Apple One. (2) Presumably, there are non-trivial, hardware-related costs to doing this. I find it hard to believe that Apple's going to enable this esoteric capability on every device. What am I missing?
- jacques-noris 4y ago
  I can very well imagine that Apple will offer this service only for the Pro models for the time being. Apple has been trying to differentiate the expensive Pro models from the normal iPhones for some time now. And perhaps you only get if for free with iCloud+
lxgr 4y ago
There are Iridium-based two-way messengers on the market without an externally visible antenna. The difference in data rate and SNR required for voice and text messaging is enormous – if you can afford for your message to take a couple of seconds to go out, you can be fine without an antenna.
- jsjohnst 4y ago
  > There are Iridium-based two-way messengers on the market without an externally visible antenna. I currently own a couple and have owned a bunch of other devices in this category. Have you ever looked at a tear down of one of those devices? Now compare that to a tear down of an iphone? Even supposing Apple can design a much smaller antenna, where is it going to fit? What’s the battery life going to be when it has to send messages periodically (until confirmed) at MUCH higher output power?
  - JustSomeNobody 4y ago
    What if this is an emergency situation only thing. Say your phone detects you took an impact (car crash) or fall (hiking), it can start sending out emergency text messages with location data periodically until the battery dies. Tie this with vitals on an Apple Watch and it could prove very helpful in extreme situations.

jsjohnst 4y ago

Guess I need to eat crow... Will be interesting to see how precise you must have your phone pointing towards the satellite.

tra3 4y ago

What about the tmobile/spacex announcement earlier in the week?

jsjohnst 4y ago
Iridium flies at about 450mi above the ground, SpaceX/Starlink does a bit lower around 350mi. Both are still a VERY long way to transmit a gigahertz signal, especially unless you are standing in a wide open area with no obstructions of the sky. Iridium uses frequencies well suited for space to ground comms and has specially designed antennas on both ends with high power radios (hence the whip antenna). Even with all that, Iridium is unreliable at best, but better than nothing. So now you want to do that with standard 5G frequencies (which are more impacted by weather), using standard terrestrial phone antennas and radios on the ground, and you expect it to work?
- tra3 4y ago
  Well, I’ve got a garmin inreach that uses iridium and it’s been quite reliable. Inreach mini is cell phone sized… of course it’s super low bandwidth so I assume that’s what’s gonna happen with the new functionality as well. Anyway all speculation at this point.
  - prescriptivist 4y ago
    I spend a fair amount of time in northern New England and my mini takes a while to connect and sync up (10 minutes or more in some cases) and requires more or less stabilizing it somewhere where there is no tree cover. I wonder if these various satellite/phone connections coming online will require similar steps.
  - katbyte 4y ago
    If my iPhone could replace my inreach for sos/simple texting and data I’d be over the moon. That’s all I want out of sat connectivity
- blantonl 4y ago
  Iridium and Inmarsat have transponders that are much higher power and have much higher RF bandwidth that supports devices at very low speed data rates. It's very conceivable that with an L-band or similar patch antenna some kind of low speed connectivity can be accomplished with line of sight to the sky via a mobile device. There are already devices sold for hikers etc that operate like this (simple SOS text messaging etc) and sat tracking of vehicles and trucks. A lot of it is store and forward type stuff. As for full voice and high speed data - yeah, that ain't happening yet at the consumer level mobile device.
  - jsjohnst 4y ago
    > There are already devices sold for hikers etc that operate like this (simple SOS text messaging etc) and sat tracking of vehicles and trucks. Yep, I’ve owned a ton of them over the years. My first was the FollowMeSpot device coming up on two decades ago. They’ve of course gotten a lot smaller, but are still definitely “thick fugly bricks” in comparison to Apple’s designs. Looking at tear downs of them, I see absolutely no way you’ll fit the important bits of one inside an iPhone case.
- fragmede 4y ago
  T-Mobile's likely going to use their 600MhZ spectrum allocation for this, which is lower than the multi-GhZ frequency used by the other parts of the 5G frequencies, and is less impacted by weather and goes further.
  - virtuallynathan 4y ago
    They already said it’s PCS, 1900Mhz.
- lxgr 4y ago
  Iridium uses the L-band; Globalstar uses the S- and the L-band. 5G phones support frequencies in these bands, and well above and below either.
  - jsjohnst 4y ago
    Inmarsat, Iridium, Thuraya, and Globalstar primarily use L-band. The early PCS allocations and a few later allocations (1900, 1800, 1700) are also L-band, but there’s good reason not to use them for this, they are already heavily in use all over. Satellite cells cover a large area and you don’t want to collide with a tower using the same frequency. The 600-800mhz allocations are not great for satellite broadcast due to limiting characteristics of those bands. So for the 5G bands that would not already heavily be in use and/or aren’t well suited to satellite use, that leaves us C band (3-5ghz), and K/Ku band (mmWave).

bogomipz 4y ago

I'm curious do you work environment require you to have multiple sat phones? For someone who knows nothing about these, what are some of the state of the art choices right now?

blantonl 4y ago
Oil and Gas are huge users of Sat phones - there are huge areas of Oil and Gas infrastructure across the country that reside in areas not served by cell phone service. Also, marine (ships, platforms etc)
jsjohnst 4y ago
> I'm curious do you work environment require you to have multiple sat phones? No, I’m just a tech geek who had to be emergency airlifted from 11,000ft off a mountain straight to an emergency room. I happened to have an Iridium phone at the time and it’s what likely saved my life (no cell phones worked there). Since then, I’ve been interested in something better and so have done a bunch of research trying brands over the years and have settled in on a few devices I find best for my needs.
- bogomipz 4y ago
  >"Since then, I’ve been interested in something better and so have done a bunch of research trying brands over the years and have settled in on a few devices I find best for my needs." Could you share some of your recommendations or what your research has uncovered?

CharlesW 4y ago

> …I’m sorry, still calling bullshit on this, just like every previous year this rumor came out. To me, the bizarrely premature T-Mobile/SpaceX pre-announcement ("beta in select areas by the end of 2023") makes a lot more sense if they felt they needed to beat Apple's announcement. But I'm still mystified by this for two reasons: (1) Apple doesn't/can't do niche. So either all customers will get this benefit for free, or it'll be another checklist feature of iCloud+ and/or Apple One. (2) Presumably, there are non-trivial, hardware-related costs to doing this. I find it hard to believe that Apple's going to enable this esoteric capability on every device. What am I missing?

jacques-noris 4y ago
I can very well imagine that Apple will offer this service only for the Pro models for the time being. Apple has been trying to differentiate the expensive Pro models from the normal iPhones for some time now. And perhaps you only get if for free with iCloud+

lxgr 4y ago

There are Iridium-based two-way messengers on the market without an externally visible antenna. The difference in data rate and SNR required for voice and text messaging is enormous – if you can afford for your message to take a couple of seconds to go out, you can be fine without an antenna.

jsjohnst 4y ago
> There are Iridium-based two-way messengers on the market without an externally visible antenna. I currently own a couple and have owned a bunch of other devices in this category. Have you ever looked at a tear down of one of those devices? Now compare that to a tear down of an iphone? Even supposing Apple can design a much smaller antenna, where is it going to fit? What’s the battery life going to be when it has to send messages periodically (until confirmed) at MUCH higher output power?
- JustSomeNobody 4y ago
  What if this is an emergency situation only thing. Say your phone detects you took an impact (car crash) or fall (hiking), it can start sending out emergency text messages with location data periodically until the battery dies. Tie this with vitals on an Apple Watch and it could prove very helpful in extreme situations.