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A Dutch friend of mine, who speaks great English, tried to impress me by mentioning her musician friend studied at "the conservatory." She was baffled when I r

A Dutch friend of mine, who speaks great English, tried to impress me by mentioning her musician friend studied at "the conservatory." She was baffled when I replied that I hadn't heard of The Conservatory before. It took us minutes to understand she meant a conservatory: they studied at a music school. I agree that it's more complex than native speakers realize.

Tijdreiziger 4y ago
Wow, that's interesting. In Dutch you would definitely use an article in that sentence: ze heeft op/aan het conservatorium gestudeerd - she studied at (the) conservatory hij heeft op/aan het hbo/de universiteit gestudeerd - he studied at (the) college/university
- lelandfe 4y ago
  I’ll send this to her! Would love to know how her mental translation arrived there.
SilasX 4y ago
Eh ... I don't see how that's an different from the common English idiom of saying you went to "the store", which actually always irks me too, since people say it even when it lacks context that would make it definite. If anything, the problem is that she's doing that same thing there.
- brigandish 4y ago
  It's because the alternative is "I went to a store" which only invites unnecessary questions and isn't relevant to the conversation or will become clear so the indicates that, much like ある人 in Japanese means "someone in particular but I'm not going to mention the name because it's pointless to what I'm telling you and it'll just bog us down if I bring it up but it was someone definite", much like the store.
  - SilasX 4y ago
    So then what's the difference between that and saying "the conservatory", as in the original comment, for the same reason?
    - brigandish 4y ago
      Because if I say "I went to the store" or "I went to the pub" it's somewhere we both go or experience or have an expectation of going or experiencing, no further introduction needed. If we both go to the same conservatory then "the conservatory" would work, no further introduction needed. It doesn't if we don't, it becomes special and therefore needs explanation to introduce to the conversation and take on "the".
      - SilasX 4y ago
        > Because if I say "I went to the store" … it's somewhere we both go or experience or have an expectation of going or experiencing, No, it isn’t. I frequently see native speakers refer to “the store” when that doesn’t hold — hence why it feels like a special case or break from the usual rules.
        brigandish 4y ago
        You know native speakers that don’t go shopping?
        SilasX 4y ago
        That’s not the standard your original comment was using (or you’re intentionally moving the goal posts here and abandoned good-faith). Again, to quote with more context: > I say "I went to the store" or "I went to the pub" it's somewhere we both go or experience or have an expectation of going or experiencing, no further introduction needed. If we both go to the same conservatory then "the conservatory" would work, Native speakers say “the store” even when there’s no expectation that a) I know which store they mean, or b) I go there myself or will in the future. ie, the standard you use for deciding whether “the” would work in the conservatory example. Even under your new standard, you should say that “the conservatory” is fine as long as the listener “goes/has gone to conservatories”. Finally, in case it matters: yes, I have had native speakers (my parents) say “the store” even when I (also a native speaker) didn’t go shopping at all, being too young to do it. (This is why oh-so-clever rhetorical questions should be used with caution.)
- cecilpl2 4y ago
  I feel like this has something to do with whether the identity of the thing is central to the story or incidental. "On my last vacation I went to the beach to work on my tan." vs "on my last vacation I went to a beach to work on my tan". "The beach" feels like I went to a specific beach on purpose (or that there was only one), while "a beach" feels like I just picked one at random. "On my way here I stopped at the store to get an apple" vs "On my way here I stopped at a store to get an apple". Similarly, "the store" implies intentionality/singularity, while "a store" implies I happened upon it.
wizofaus 4y ago
"The conservatory" is fine in English if the speaker has good reason to assume the listener would know which conservatory was being talked about, no different to any other educational institution. OTOH legal scholars only ever aspire to "the bar" (it's a metonym) and it's only ever "the school of hard knocks". Of course "school" on its own (or if only qualified by an adjective like "high" or "night" or "law") is unusual because it often sounds unnatural to use an article before it when describing your attendance there.
- lelandfe 4y ago
  > if the speaker has good reason to assume the listener would know which conservatory was being talked about Right - and as I didn’t, I assumed she was using a proper noun. It’s fine English either way! Language is fun.

Tijdreiziger 4y ago

Wow, that's interesting. In Dutch you would definitely use an article in that sentence: ze heeft op/aan het conservatorium gestudeerd - she studied at (the) conservatory hij heeft op/aan het hbo/de universiteit gestudeerd - he studied at (the) college/university

lelandfe 4y ago
I’ll send this to her! Would love to know how her mental translation arrived there.

SilasX 4y ago

Eh ... I don't see how that's an different from the common English idiom of saying you went to "the store", which actually always irks me too, since people say it even when it lacks context that would make it definite. If anything, the problem is that she's doing that same thing there.

brigandish 4y ago
It's because the alternative is "I went to a store" which only invites unnecessary questions and isn't relevant to the conversation or will become clear so the indicates that, much like ある人 in Japanese means "someone in particular but I'm not going to mention the name because it's pointless to what I'm telling you and it'll just bog us down if I bring it up but it was someone definite", much like the store.
- SilasX 4y ago
  So then what's the difference between that and saying "the conservatory", as in the original comment, for the same reason?
  - brigandish 4y ago
    Because if I say "I went to the store" or "I went to the pub" it's somewhere we both go or experience or have an expectation of going or experiencing, no further introduction needed. If we both go to the same conservatory then "the conservatory" would work, no further introduction needed. It doesn't if we don't, it becomes special and therefore needs explanation to introduce to the conversation and take on "the".
    - SilasX 4y ago
      > Because if I say "I went to the store" … it's somewhere we both go or experience or have an expectation of going or experiencing, No, it isn’t. I frequently see native speakers refer to “the store” when that doesn’t hold — hence why it feels like a special case or break from the usual rules.
      - brigandish 4y ago
        You know native speakers that don’t go shopping?
        SilasX 4y ago
        That’s not the standard your original comment was using (or you’re intentionally moving the goal posts here and abandoned good-faith). Again, to quote with more context: > I say "I went to the store" or "I went to the pub" it's somewhere we both go or experience or have an expectation of going or experiencing, no further introduction needed. If we both go to the same conservatory then "the conservatory" would work, Native speakers say “the store” even when there’s no expectation that a) I know which store they mean, or b) I go there myself or will in the future. ie, the standard you use for deciding whether “the” would work in the conservatory example. Even under your new standard, you should say that “the conservatory” is fine as long as the listener “goes/has gone to conservatories”. Finally, in case it matters: yes, I have had native speakers (my parents) say “the store” even when I (also a native speaker) didn’t go shopping at all, being too young to do it. (This is why oh-so-clever rhetorical questions should be used with caution.)
cecilpl2 4y ago
I feel like this has something to do with whether the identity of the thing is central to the story or incidental. "On my last vacation I went to the beach to work on my tan." vs "on my last vacation I went to a beach to work on my tan". "The beach" feels like I went to a specific beach on purpose (or that there was only one), while "a beach" feels like I just picked one at random. "On my way here I stopped at the store to get an apple" vs "On my way here I stopped at a store to get an apple". Similarly, "the store" implies intentionality/singularity, while "a store" implies I happened upon it.

wizofaus 4y ago

"The conservatory" is fine in English if the speaker has good reason to assume the listener would know which conservatory was being talked about, no different to any other educational institution. OTOH legal scholars only ever aspire to "the bar" (it's a metonym) and it's only ever "the school of hard knocks". Of course "school" on its own (or if only qualified by an adjective like "high" or "night" or "law") is unusual because it often sounds unnatural to use an article before it when describing your attendance there.

lelandfe 4y ago
> if the speaker has good reason to assume the listener would know which conservatory was being talked about Right - and as I didn’t, I assumed she was using a proper noun. It’s fine English either way! Language is fun.