4 ms·

At the current electricity prices, break even point for household PV installations even in coldish climate (Latvia, Eastern Europe) is on the order of 3-4 years

by fest 4y ago

At the current electricity prices, break even point for household PV installations even in coldish climate (Latvia, Eastern Europe) is on the order of 3-4 years without subsidies. Granted, it does not solve the problem that the energy I'll spend in the fall/winter has to come from somewhere but financially it is at the very least closer to being balanced out. Also, this is in a country, where the net metering system is favorable to households (one can spend the full amount that has been fed to grid).

jacquesm 4y ago
Buying panels, inverters, heatpumps and booking installer times are significant bottle necks at the moment for further household PV installation.
- epolanski 4y ago
  Also: legislation and beaurocracy.
  - fest 4y ago
    Not in Latvia- it's an online application, you get a decision (=does the grid have generation capacity in your location), and then submit an installation report signed by electrician. Getting building permits for installations was waived this year (before that it varied by city).
- fest 4y ago
  At least here, the heatpump and installer availability seems to be the biggest bottlenecks. I'm not looking forward to it, but I may end up having to install (ground source) heat pump myself (assuming it will be delivered this season at all- quote delivery date was June).
thatfrenchguy 4y ago
Or, at night also? Solar is all fun and games until the sun goes down and your grid needs to not collapse.
- jillesvangurp 4y ago
  A solar charged EV will keep your house going for several days. Other storage solutions are available. With the right amount of square meters and storage, you could disconnect from the grid entirely. For most people that would be too expensive but it's perfectly feasible in large parts of the world. Especially the US. With the exception of Alaska, most of it is much further south than most of Europe. Plenty of sun hours throughout the year. Even in winter. So, even in winter you'd be able to squeeze some kilowatt hours out of a few solar panels. Just install more of them until you have enough to charge up your batteries during the darkest part of the winter and you are good to go. Maybe add some wind to diversify. For heating there are thermal storage solutions that use cheap materials like sand or basalt. Charge in the summer, heat in the winter. All you need is some pipes, mass, insulation and a way to dump energy in the system. There are various prototype systems operational already and they work as advertised. You might wonder about the cost of a silo of locally sourced sand. I'd say it's probably going to be dirt cheap. EV batteries are going to be great for balancing the grid. Vehicle to grid charge connectors are already being standardized and multiple vehicles that support that are being produced already. Millions on the road in the next few years. Twh of power. A very tempting target for would be virtual power plant companies. Like Tesla. The main challenge with wind and solar is bridging the few weeks a year where production of both may drop dramatically in the winter for more than a day. The combination of no wind, low sun and little amount of sun hours, and overcast skies is kind of deadly. In northern Europe that might last as long as a month. The rest of the year there is going to be either or both enough solar and wind. Mostly the real challenge the rest of the time is actually what to do with the growing amounts of excess power. Plenty of answers to that but it's not a fully resolved issue. Mostly current wind operators seem to regularly disable their wind mills by weather-vaning them instead. They're not broken, they've been turned off because they are producing more than needed. We're going to end up with way more power than what we need. People are installing solar panels on their roof that generate much more power than they need, even when aggregated over time. The current crisis is actually going to result in even more people doing that. This poses a serious challenge for energy produces still dumb enough to depend on burning fossil fuels. Most of the time they'll be selling at a loss or completely shutting down operations. And a few weeks a year they suddenly have to deliver a little bit of power. Not a great business to be in.
seydor 4y ago
But if too many people buy panels, then europe will stop burning gas, the price will go down fast, and their profits will evaporate

by fest 4y ago

jacquesm 4y ago

Buying panels, inverters, heatpumps and booking installer times are significant bottle necks at the moment for further household PV installation.

epolanski 4y ago
Also: legislation and beaurocracy.
- fest 4y ago
  Not in Latvia- it's an online application, you get a decision (=does the grid have generation capacity in your location), and then submit an installation report signed by electrician. Getting building permits for installations was waived this year (before that it varied by city).
fest 4y ago
At least here, the heatpump and installer availability seems to be the biggest bottlenecks. I'm not looking forward to it, but I may end up having to install (ground source) heat pump myself (assuming it will be delivered this season at all- quote delivery date was June).

thatfrenchguy 4y ago

Or, at night also? Solar is all fun and games until the sun goes down and your grid needs to not collapse.

jillesvangurp 4y ago
A solar charged EV will keep your house going for several days. Other storage solutions are available. With the right amount of square meters and storage, you could disconnect from the grid entirely. For most people that would be too expensive but it's perfectly feasible in large parts of the world. Especially the US. With the exception of Alaska, most of it is much further south than most of Europe. Plenty of sun hours throughout the year. Even in winter. So, even in winter you'd be able to squeeze some kilowatt hours out of a few solar panels. Just install more of them until you have enough to charge up your batteries during the darkest part of the winter and you are good to go. Maybe add some wind to diversify. For heating there are thermal storage solutions that use cheap materials like sand or basalt. Charge in the summer, heat in the winter. All you need is some pipes, mass, insulation and a way to dump energy in the system. There are various prototype systems operational already and they work as advertised. You might wonder about the cost of a silo of locally sourced sand. I'd say it's probably going to be dirt cheap. EV batteries are going to be great for balancing the grid. Vehicle to grid charge connectors are already being standardized and multiple vehicles that support that are being produced already. Millions on the road in the next few years. Twh of power. A very tempting target for would be virtual power plant companies. Like Tesla. The main challenge with wind and solar is bridging the few weeks a year where production of both may drop dramatically in the winter for more than a day. The combination of no wind, low sun and little amount of sun hours, and overcast skies is kind of deadly. In northern Europe that might last as long as a month. The rest of the year there is going to be either or both enough solar and wind. Mostly the real challenge the rest of the time is actually what to do with the growing amounts of excess power. Plenty of answers to that but it's not a fully resolved issue. Mostly current wind operators seem to regularly disable their wind mills by weather-vaning them instead. They're not broken, they've been turned off because they are producing more than needed. We're going to end up with way more power than what we need. People are installing solar panels on their roof that generate much more power than they need, even when aggregated over time. The current crisis is actually going to result in even more people doing that. This poses a serious challenge for energy produces still dumb enough to depend on burning fossil fuels. Most of the time they'll be selling at a loss or completely shutting down operations. And a few weeks a year they suddenly have to deliver a little bit of power. Not a great business to be in.

seydor 4y ago

But if too many people buy panels, then europe will stop burning gas, the price will go down fast, and their profits will evaporate