3 ms·

Though I understand the reasoning behind your proposal, it has to be noted that it's massively unfair towards lower incomes. Simply because these are the people

Though I understand the reasoning behind your proposal, it has to be noted that it's massively unfair towards lower incomes. Simply because these are the people who either don't have the money to reduce the energy usage of their homes, or are renting and there is little incentive for landlords to make that investment.

hotpotamus 4y ago
Reality is unfair towards people with lower incomes - that's what lower income means.
- OJFord 4y ago
  What does 'unfair' mean in that dictionary system?
  - hotpotamus 4y ago
    Why does a vest have no sleeves?
    - the_third_wave 4y ago
      Depends on the dictionary you're re using and where you look, in a Dutch dictionary a 'vest' can be a knitted button-down sleeved sweater ('een kort gebreid jasje met mouwen').
- knorker 4y ago
  Not in isolation, no. E.g. FIRE. It's not unfair that those who retire early don't continue to get a salary. It's not even unfair (on its own) that those who are irresponsible with credit cards to go on trips, instead of investing in their future (e.g. staying home and learning), later have lower income. That's not unfair.
ClumsyPilot 4y ago
> or are renting and there is little incentive for landlords to make that investment This is a massive market failure that needs to be addressed
- Pepe1vo 4y ago
  Definitely, here in the Netherlands a law has recently been passed that mandates that all rented houses should have a minimum energy efficiency rating of D. IMO it should have been a C rating, but at least its something.
  - ChuckNorris89 4y ago
    In Austria D isn't really much. Those are basically uninsulated buildings from the 50's. That's a really low bar and I don't know what building can be worse than D. A garden shed maybe? Making D mandatory by law seems like pointless political posturing. But then again I don't know buildings in the Netherlands.
    - Pepe1vo 4y ago
      It's an European standard, so maybe the criteria are different in Australia? My current apartment has an E rating and it has double paned windows everywhere, floor + ceiling insulation and I have neighbours on all side including above and below, meaning not much energy is transferred to outside. Edit: just noticed I misread Austria as Australia (lol), point still stands though, a D rating is not that bad.
    - makomk 4y ago
      I'm not sure how the Austrian system works or what homes are like there or in the Netherlands, but a lot of older homes in the UK can apparently only reach a D even after all the standard insulation retrofits are done. This is especially a problem in areas of the UK that are poorer already.
  - ploppyploppy 4y ago
    In the UK it's E
throwaway22032 4y ago
If you assume that the lower band is set significantly below the level required for basic needs, yes. That would essentially be no change from now.
knorker 4y ago
It's a proposal that is exactly taking people with lower incomes into account. What, short of abolishing capitalism altogether, would be "fair"? More money will always be able to buy more than less money. And the comment you're replying to would HEAVILY subsidize people for their needs, while discouraging everyone's wants.

hotpotamus 4y ago

Reality is unfair towards people with lower incomes - that's what lower income means.

OJFord 4y ago
What does 'unfair' mean in that dictionary system?
- hotpotamus 4y ago
  Why does a vest have no sleeves?
  - the_third_wave 4y ago
    Depends on the dictionary you're re using and where you look, in a Dutch dictionary a 'vest' can be a knitted button-down sleeved sweater ('een kort gebreid jasje met mouwen').
knorker 4y ago
Not in isolation, no. E.g. FIRE. It's not unfair that those who retire early don't continue to get a salary. It's not even unfair (on its own) that those who are irresponsible with credit cards to go on trips, instead of investing in their future (e.g. staying home and learning), later have lower income. That's not unfair.

ClumsyPilot 4y ago

> or are renting and there is little incentive for landlords to make that investment This is a massive market failure that needs to be addressed

Pepe1vo 4y ago
Definitely, here in the Netherlands a law has recently been passed that mandates that all rented houses should have a minimum energy efficiency rating of D. IMO it should have been a C rating, but at least its something.
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago
  In Austria D isn't really much. Those are basically uninsulated buildings from the 50's. That's a really low bar and I don't know what building can be worse than D. A garden shed maybe? Making D mandatory by law seems like pointless political posturing. But then again I don't know buildings in the Netherlands.
  - Pepe1vo 4y ago
    It's an European standard, so maybe the criteria are different in Australia? My current apartment has an E rating and it has double paned windows everywhere, floor + ceiling insulation and I have neighbours on all side including above and below, meaning not much energy is transferred to outside. Edit: just noticed I misread Austria as Australia (lol), point still stands though, a D rating is not that bad.
  - makomk 4y ago
    I'm not sure how the Austrian system works or what homes are like there or in the Netherlands, but a lot of older homes in the UK can apparently only reach a D even after all the standard insulation retrofits are done. This is especially a problem in areas of the UK that are poorer already.
- ploppyploppy 4y ago
  In the UK it's E

throwaway22032 4y ago

If you assume that the lower band is set significantly below the level required for basic needs, yes. That would essentially be no change from now.

knorker 4y ago

It's a proposal that is exactly taking people with lower incomes into account. What, short of abolishing capitalism altogether, would be "fair"? More money will always be able to buy more than less money. And the comment you're replying to would HEAVILY subsidize people for their needs, while discouraging everyone's wants.