4 ms·

The sad thing is that it doesn't have to be that way. The world is literally pursuing a path of intentional scarcity. I'm all for conservation, but the brut

by starkd 4y ago

The sad thing is that it doesn't have to be that way. The world is literally pursuing a path of intentional scarcity. I'm all for conservation, but the brutal truth is any vibrant economy depends on access to cheap, affordable energy.

ClumsyPilot 4y ago
No, no! this is the price of depending on foreign powers for fossil fuels! The UK government has cost us billions by denying permission for privately funded renewable energy projects simply on the basis that they look ugly! https://www.carbonbrief.org/analysis-cutting-the-green-crap-has-added-2-5bn-to-uk-energy-bills/ https://www.carbonbrief.org/analysis-cutting-the-green-crap-... https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/aug/25/solar-farm-plans-refused-highest-rate-five-years-great-britain https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/aug/25/solar-fa...
- starkd 4y ago
  Looking ugly is not a trivial concern. It is one of many pollution sources that devalue quality of life. Whether its particulate emissions, light/noise pollution or just windmills that destroy the scenery of a seascape, its still pollution that has a lasting effect.
  - ClumsyPilot 4y ago
    > Looking ugly is not a trivial concern So important that it's worth it for thousands of pensioners and poor people to freeze to death this winter?
    - starkd 4y ago
      Not when there is a solution in place that has been effective for years.
- 29083011397778 4y ago
  You start with "No, no!", and then go on to, as far as I can tell, agree with parent.
  - ClumsyPilot 4y ago
    Am I misreasding it? The parent says that effort to reduce our fossil fuel consumption have resulted in rising energy bills I am saying that it's the opposite, our complacency in switching to renewables has caused this situation
    - starkd 4y ago
      The renewables are apparently not ready yet. They can't produce them fast enough, and they take an inordinate amount of material. Corporations have advanced marketing fables, recieved huge public grants all on the delusion that it is a simple switch. It's not.
  - ZeroGravitas 4y ago
    I agree with the comment as written, but I think the author means "cut the green crap" and I mean "stop subsidizing fossil fuels and roll out cheap renewables/insulation/etc."
- heurisko 4y ago
  > The UK government has cost us billions by denying permission for privately funded renewable energy projects simply on the basis that they look ugly! The issue I have with that article is that it doesn't say how many were accepted. It could just be that overall there were more applications to build, with rejections rising proportionately.
- hcurtiss 4y ago
  Yes, NIMBYs are literally destroying the country. They could have also permitted drilling in the North Sea.
- makomk 4y ago
  More precisely, the government has cost the people who would've built those privately funded renewable energy projects billions. The way the UK energy market and pretty much every other energy market globally is structured, every provider receives the price of the most expensive energy source needed to satisfy demand, which would be gas generation in the current market. There's no easy way to "fix" the market so that this doesn't happen; unlike gas, renewables have basically no incremental cost to pump out power to the grid when they have capacity, so they submit zero or even negative bids and are entirely funded by the difference between that and the actual market power price. The same is not true of government-subsidised projects in the UK like offshore wind. Those are guaranteed a fixed price by the government, and receive payments to make up the shortfall or pay back the excess under what's called a "contract for difference". The contracted prices of current offshore wind projects are... well below the current market price of electricity, let's put it that way. (Not every country does things this way. As an article that made it to HN the other day pointed out, Germany guaranteed a minimum and let suppliers keep the excess which was an expensive mistake: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32556113 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32556113) Offshore wind also fits better into an overall strategy of switching to renewable energy, since it has a much better capacity factor and is actually useful in the winter unlike solar.
- samwillis 4y ago
  The UKs largest solar farm is proposed to be built about 2 miles from my home [0]. Local opposition is almost absolute, I doubt it will be built. It’s so frustrating, I agree with the criticisms of building them on agricultural land, but we are in a situation where we need that power now. The government should be pushing though emergency measures allowing these projects to be built. But then planning on pushing for further projects to utilise industrial roofs and car parks. 0: https://www.mallardpasssolar.co.uk/ https://www.mallardpasssolar.co.uk/
  - kaashif 4y ago
    It's ridiculous that we're in this state of affairs. People using the power of the state to restrict what others can do on their own private property because "it's ugly". There are real reasons to block development, like industrial waste or noise, but this is ridiculous. Even housing NIMBYs can come up with more convincing reasons like pressure on local services or traffic. This kind of interference with property rights should be impossible. The UK's planning system is unfit for purpose and is far too local. Locality always means that locals will block anything they can due to being change-averse, ignoring reason or morality.
  - raverbashing 4y ago
    I'm all for strongly blaming the NIMBYs for this
  - permo-w 4y ago
    they’ll pay for it electorally
- agilob 4y ago
  >No, no! this is the price of depending on foreign powers for fossil fuels! Also, England rejected plan for tidal lagoon power plant in Wales https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tidal_Lagoon_Swansea_Bay https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tidal_Lagoon_Swansea_Bay
fithisux 4y ago
I agree with this observation.
pibechorro 4y ago
The answer is decentralized solar (dont depend on the gov) and Nuclear utility from the state. Its the only way to mantain western (high intensity) living standards and power an all EV world.
- starkd 4y ago
  Those replacements obviously take a long time though. Corporations have peddled the idea all this would be easy. Goverments complied by mandating closures and driving up the price too soon. None of this is even ready to go.
- legulere 4y ago
  Nuclear utility from the state like in France, where half the reactors are down which is one of the main reason for soaring electricity prices in Europe?

by starkd 4y ago

ClumsyPilot 4y ago

No, no! this is the price of depending on foreign powers for fossil fuels! The UK government has cost us billions by denying permission for privately funded renewable energy projects simply on the basis that they look ugly! https://www.carbonbrief.org/analysis-cutting-the-green-crap-has-added-2-5bn-to-uk-energy-bills/ https://www.carbonbrief.org/analysis-cutting-the-green-crap-... https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/aug/25/solar-farm-plans-refused-highest-rate-five-years-great-britain https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/aug/25/solar-fa...

starkd 4y ago
Looking ugly is not a trivial concern. It is one of many pollution sources that devalue quality of life. Whether its particulate emissions, light/noise pollution or just windmills that destroy the scenery of a seascape, its still pollution that has a lasting effect.
- ClumsyPilot 4y ago
  > Looking ugly is not a trivial concern So important that it's worth it for thousands of pensioners and poor people to freeze to death this winter?
  - starkd 4y ago
    Not when there is a solution in place that has been effective for years.
29083011397778 4y ago
You start with "No, no!", and then go on to, as far as I can tell, agree with parent.
- ClumsyPilot 4y ago
  Am I misreasding it? The parent says that effort to reduce our fossil fuel consumption have resulted in rising energy bills I am saying that it's the opposite, our complacency in switching to renewables has caused this situation
  - starkd 4y ago
    The renewables are apparently not ready yet. They can't produce them fast enough, and they take an inordinate amount of material. Corporations have advanced marketing fables, recieved huge public grants all on the delusion that it is a simple switch. It's not.
- ZeroGravitas 4y ago
  I agree with the comment as written, but I think the author means "cut the green crap" and I mean "stop subsidizing fossil fuels and roll out cheap renewables/insulation/etc."
heurisko 4y ago
> The UK government has cost us billions by denying permission for privately funded renewable energy projects simply on the basis that they look ugly! The issue I have with that article is that it doesn't say how many were accepted. It could just be that overall there were more applications to build, with rejections rising proportionately.
hcurtiss 4y ago
Yes, NIMBYs are literally destroying the country. They could have also permitted drilling in the North Sea.
makomk 4y ago
More precisely, the government has cost the people who would've built those privately funded renewable energy projects billions. The way the UK energy market and pretty much every other energy market globally is structured, every provider receives the price of the most expensive energy source needed to satisfy demand, which would be gas generation in the current market. There's no easy way to "fix" the market so that this doesn't happen; unlike gas, renewables have basically no incremental cost to pump out power to the grid when they have capacity, so they submit zero or even negative bids and are entirely funded by the difference between that and the actual market power price. The same is not true of government-subsidised projects in the UK like offshore wind. Those are guaranteed a fixed price by the government, and receive payments to make up the shortfall or pay back the excess under what's called a "contract for difference". The contracted prices of current offshore wind projects are... well below the current market price of electricity, let's put it that way. (Not every country does things this way. As an article that made it to HN the other day pointed out, Germany guaranteed a minimum and let suppliers keep the excess which was an expensive mistake: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32556113 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32556113) Offshore wind also fits better into an overall strategy of switching to renewable energy, since it has a much better capacity factor and is actually useful in the winter unlike solar.
samwillis 4y ago
The UKs largest solar farm is proposed to be built about 2 miles from my home [0]. Local opposition is almost absolute, I doubt it will be built. It’s so frustrating, I agree with the criticisms of building them on agricultural land, but we are in a situation where we need that power now. The government should be pushing though emergency measures allowing these projects to be built. But then planning on pushing for further projects to utilise industrial roofs and car parks. 0: https://www.mallardpasssolar.co.uk/ https://www.mallardpasssolar.co.uk/
- kaashif 4y ago
  It's ridiculous that we're in this state of affairs. People using the power of the state to restrict what others can do on their own private property because "it's ugly". There are real reasons to block development, like industrial waste or noise, but this is ridiculous. Even housing NIMBYs can come up with more convincing reasons like pressure on local services or traffic. This kind of interference with property rights should be impossible. The UK's planning system is unfit for purpose and is far too local. Locality always means that locals will block anything they can due to being change-averse, ignoring reason or morality.
- raverbashing 4y ago
  I'm all for strongly blaming the NIMBYs for this
- permo-w 4y ago
  they’ll pay for it electorally
agilob 4y ago
>No, no! this is the price of depending on foreign powers for fossil fuels! Also, England rejected plan for tidal lagoon power plant in Wales https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tidal_Lagoon_Swansea_Bay https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tidal_Lagoon_Swansea_Bay

fithisux 4y ago

I agree with this observation.

pibechorro 4y ago

The answer is decentralized solar (dont depend on the gov) and Nuclear utility from the state. Its the only way to mantain western (high intensity) living standards and power an all EV world.

starkd 4y ago
Those replacements obviously take a long time though. Corporations have peddled the idea all this would be easy. Goverments complied by mandating closures and driving up the price too soon. None of this is even ready to go.
legulere 4y ago
Nuclear utility from the state like in France, where half the reactors are down which is one of the main reason for soaring electricity prices in Europe?