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I don't think that this issue is getting anywhere near the amount of attention that it needs. We're rapidly approaching the point at which the only thing that'
by throwaway22032 4y ago
I don't think that this issue is getting anywhere near the amount of attention that it needs.
We're rapidly approaching the point at which the only thing that's going to work is rationing.
I'd propose that we have marginal rates like income tax e.g. first X units for a household are 30p/kWh, second X units are 100p/kWh, third X units are 200p/kWh, with the aim of heavily penalising usage above what is necessary for basic needs. The bands need to be set based on analysing how much gas we can physically secure and deals need to be struck at a governmental level.
Basically, wartime footing to keep homes and factories running.
That might not even be enough, but the alternatives are worse; some mix of the following:
- people disengage with the system (e.g. ignore the bills, riot)
- millions of people end up unable to cook food or heat their home
- disposable income _disappears_. not goes down, but does not exist or goes negative for 80%+ of the population
The projections for early next year are that an average home will have to pay 7000 a year for energy, up from around 1000-1500 previously. It's not a matter of cutting back on luxuries, most households literally don't have that, and cutting energy use to 1/5th of their previous is impossible.
For businesses it's even worse, there's no cap, some places are facing 10x increases in energy costs e.g. just stop trading, your business model is unviable until/unless costs come down.
- starkd 4y agoThe sad thing is that it doesn't have to be that way. The world is literally pursuing a path of intentional scarcity. I'm all for conservation, but the brutal truth is any vibrant economy depends on access to cheap, affordable energy.
- ClumsyPilot 4y agoNo, no! this is the price of depending on foreign powers for fossil fuels! The UK government has cost us billions by denying permission for privately funded renewable energy projects simply on the basis that they look ugly! https://www.carbonbrief.org/analysis-cutting-the-green-crap-has-added-2-5bn-to-uk-energy-bills/ https://www.carbonbrief.org/analysis-cutting-the-green-crap-... https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/aug/25/solar-farm-plans-refused-highest-rate-five-years-great-britain https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/aug/25/solar-fa...
- starkd 4y agoLooking ugly is not a trivial concern. It is one of many pollution sources that devalue quality of life. Whether its particulate emissions, light/noise pollution or just windmills that destroy the scenery of a seascape, its still pollution that has a lasting effect.
- ClumsyPilot 4y ago> Looking ugly is not a trivial concern So important that it's worth it for thousands of pensioners and poor people to freeze to death this winter?
- starkd 4y agoNot when there is a solution in place that has been effective for years.
- 29083011397778 4y agoYou start with "No, no!", and then go on to, as far as I can tell, agree with parent.
- ClumsyPilot 4y agoAm I misreasding it? The parent says that effort to reduce our fossil fuel consumption have resulted in rising energy bills I am saying that it's the opposite, our complacency in switching to renewables has caused this situation
- starkd 4y agoThe renewables are apparently not ready yet. They can't produce them fast enough, and they take an inordinate amount of material. Corporations have advanced marketing fables, recieved huge public grants all on the delusion that it is a simple switch. It's not.
- ZeroGravitas 4y ago
- fithisux 4y agoI agree with this observation.
- pibechorro 4y agoThe answer is decentralized solar (dont depend on the gov) and Nuclear utility from the state. Its the only way to mantain western (high intensity) living standards and power an all EV world.
- starkd 4y agoThose replacements obviously take a long time though. Corporations have peddled the idea all this would be easy. Goverments complied by mandating closures and driving up the price too soon. None of this is even ready to go.
- legulere 4y agoNuclear utility from the state like in France, where half the reactors are down which is one of the main reason for soaring electricity prices in Europe?
- bluescrn 4y agoBut we need high energy prices to solve the climate crisis. And right now, we can blame it all on Russia.
- samwillis 4y agoThis proposal does exactly that, targeting the excessive users, people with large houses for example. But leaves people who have lower incomes in a much safer position economically. It could even be extended so you are only eligible for the lower initial unit most if you have suitably insulated your house, using the government grants that are currently available.
- theplumber 4y agoIf this is a war time situation why don't we build alternatives(i.e renewables) like in a war situation?
- ClumsyPilot 4y agoBecause in the conservative ideology when government has a plan, that's socialism
- jl6 4y agoThey are - renewables investment is at an all time high. But it takes time to build and bring online and investment in storage hasn’t kept pace with investment in generation.
- pydry 4y agoThats coz when we max out renewables 40% of electricity still comes from gas. Theres literally zero point in storage until renewable generation starts edging towards 100% at least sometimes. Investment has started though - there's coire glas, which is taking about 5 years to build. 5 more of them and we could go 99% renewable on solar and wind alone.
- makomk 4y agoA substantial proportion of renewable capacity is already lost to curtailment in the UK, and supposedly this could be reduced by storage. This happens well before renewable generation hits 100% even some of the time for various reasons (transmission capacity bottlenecks, the need for a certain amount of dispatchable power to ensure grid stability, and so on).
- theplumber 4y agoAll time high is not enough for a war situation.
- paganel 4y agoBecause most of those alternatives are just economic Wunderwaffen. It’s going to be a very bad landing for the common people in the West, not sure if it will also bring systemic change, but something will have to give. I just hope we’re not at the 1932 metaphorical moment.
- Pepe1vo 4y agoThough I understand the reasoning behind your proposal, it has to be noted that it's massively unfair towards lower incomes. Simply because these are the people who either don't have the money to reduce the energy usage of their homes, or are renting and there is little incentive for landlords to make that investment.
- hotpotamus 4y agoReality is unfair towards people with lower incomes - that's what lower income means.
- OJFord 4y agoWhat does 'unfair' mean in that dictionary system?
- hotpotamus 4y agoWhy does a vest have no sleeves?
- the_third_wave 4y agoDepends on the dictionary you're re using and where you look, in a Dutch dictionary a 'vest' can be a knitted button-down sleeved sweater ('een kort gebreid jasje met mouwen').
- knorker 4y agoNot in isolation, no. E.g. FIRE. It's not unfair that those who retire early don't continue to get a salary. It's not even unfair (on its own) that those who are irresponsible with credit cards to go on trips, instead of investing in their future (e.g. staying home and learning), later have lower income. That's not unfair.
- ClumsyPilot 4y ago> or are renting and there is little incentive for landlords to make that investment This is a massive market failure that needs to be addressed
- hotpotamus 4y agoI live in Texas - an energy rich state (ignoring our problems in February 2021) in an energy rich country, and we already have the sort of tiering you describe from our local provider, so I'm surprised that isn't already going on.
- jdasdf 4y ago>We're rapidly approaching the point at which the only thing that's going to work is rationing. Or, get this, we stop shooting ourselves in the foot, and allow businesses to purchase russian energy again.
- LandR 4y ago4% of British gas was imported from Russia.
- knorker 4y agoImplying that it shouldn't have much of a price effect? That's only true on elastic consumption.
- pydry 4y agoIt's sad that the only workable solution has become politically untouchable.
- jl6 4y agoThis is somewhat like deciding that the reintroduction of slavery is the only workable solution to rising labor costs.
- pydry 4y ago1) Keep Ukraine out of NATO 2) respect the results of a landslide referendum 3) independence for the donbass Im not sure any of those are akin to slavery. Choosing #2 as a hill we shall die on is particularly galling.
- adgjlsfhk1 4y agoah yes, the landslide referendum staffed by soldiers who shoot you if you write stay in Ukraine on a poll that has options of join Russia or join Russia.
- GFlaneur 4y agoMaybe, but the first X units should be 0p/kWh, then the next X units 30p/kWh etc. Everyone gets their basic needs covered and the heavy users pay extra. Special rates for those that use electricity to power medical devices.
- knorker 4y agoI see bitcoin miners rubbing their hands at this idea. That's more loopholes than a warehouse full of loopholes.
- GFlaneur 4y agoI was thinking of 5 to 10 units per day, per person (or household). I don't think you would do much mining with that.
- knorker 4y agoWhy not just give low income people a voucher / tax deduction equivalent to basic heating / power needs? That way you don't subsidize people like me, who honestly don't need it. Otherwise if nothing else you're incentivizing people into using their freebie electricity instead of gas for heating, if they've run out of freebie gas but not electricity. Capitalism isn't perfect, but pricing goods according to supply and demand is kinda the thing the market does best, and if you think you'll do better you should think again. Nothing is perfect, but interfering with this part of capitalism is pretty much guaranteed to have unintended consequences.
- theallan 4y agoI don't disagree, but I think it is more complex than a simple tiering system. For example, where I live we have no mains gas, so heating is typically oil. Trying to be environmentally minded I've installed heat pumps to do the hot water and space heating. Add in an electric car as well. Taking this approach would punish us for trying to move away from direct fossil fuel consumption (I'm aware that much electricity still comes form fossil fuels). So there is a lot of nuance in the proposal - allowances for electric cars, heat pumps (which the government is actively encouraging), mains gas, etc. Do each of these affect the basic needs? An alternative that crossed my mind was to change the unit price based on house hold income. Higher income households would pay a higher rate per kWh, which I think would be considered progressive. Can't see the Tories ever going for that though.
- benj111 4y agoSo a fixed payment per household? If you use more you pay more and there's still incentives to put that fixed payment into solar or whatever.
- secondcoming 4y agoEven if you cut your energy use to zero your bills are still going up due to the standing charge doubling. And the reason for the SC doubling is to compensate energy providers for taking on the customers of energy providers that went bust.
- iso1631 4y agoWe could have been spamming solar and wind all over the place for the last year using required emergency war powers. How many hectares of grouse moor do we have? How many litres of gas have we burnt this summer when we could have been using solar for free instead? Instead we've been prattling about waiting for a few old people to decide who will be the next PM, both of whom have promised not to expand renewable elecricity production, and thus to increase gas usage. Your proposal of marginal rates relies on people understanding what a kWh is and being able to measure it themselves. Only about half of houses have smart meters, and when people get a £3k bill at the end of the month they will simply not pay it, which will mean mass moving of people onto pay as you go (push of a button to do that with smart meters). Better to charge the £2/kWh but give every meter a £3000 lump sum (or £300 a month or whatever). That said, I'm on a fix at 20p until October 2023, and I'm on oil heating which is currently about 90p/litre or 9p/kWh. Was about to go for a heat pump (literally the only reason I didn't do it was because the company that quoted it couldn't be bothered to phone me back last week), but instead I've just paid what seems a ridiciulous price for oil (90p/litre) and will use the capital to fund (or part-fund) solar+storage.
- nathanaldensr 4y agoWhy don't we call this what it is: planned, intentional deindustrialization. The elites intend on sending us all back to the Stone Age. Do you think they will be suffering with no energy? Of course not; in fact, they will be the only ones allowed to use it. Believe otherwise at your own peril, folks.
- llampx 4y agoWhy?
- tomjen3 4y agoThat would benefit me, because I outsource much of my energy use, e.g I almost never bake, I just buy the bread in the store. I also live in an apartment that shares walls with neighbors, so we share heat. I am also typing this on a macbook air, which has a powersupply smaller than some fast chargers for android phones. I think the heat and the macbook is fair enough, as I am actually using less energy than others this way, but how would your system account for buying prepared food vs making on your own?
- ShivShankaran 4y agoTomjen makes a compelling intelligent comment epitome of western intelligence in this Russia Ukraine war. All the poor people should just switch to MacBook air and buy baked goods from bakery. (13) missed calls from Mensa.
- oliwarner 4y agoThe UK could nationalise its gas production, ban exports, increase production and artificially set low prices, bringing the average unit price way back down. How long it could sustain this, or whether it would be regarded as state sponsored piracy, is debatable. But Tory idiots in power. Probably won't address it until after WW3 kicks off.