4 ms·

1) "They absolutely did" Nope. Which list of people 30 years ago were 'famous for being famous' and which cohort of society aspired to be them? Name names. I

1) "They absolutely did" Nope. Which list of people 30 years ago were 'famous for being famous' and which cohort of society aspired to be them? Name names. It was not 'a thing' aside from a few random, quixotic people. Nobody wanted to 'be them' or thought they could be that. 2) Yes, we live in different circumstances, that's fair. But my grandparents were born in homes without electricity or plumbing. They did not turn to prostitution or aspire to the 'least' they could be. 3) "Why someone's ability which is apropos of nothing " Because being a great athlete or artists (or scientist etc.) is not 'a propos of nothing'. Yes, it's a bit glib for people to fanboy athlete's the way we do, and Michael Jordan is a jerk, but he's also a spectacular athlete.

DubiousPusher 4y ago
> Which list of people 30 years ago were 'famous for being famous' and which cohort of society aspired to be them? Name names. This was the life blood of MTV 30 years ago. To this list I'd add all those pickup artist cretons, half the food network and Donald Trump. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.mercurynews.com/2016/05/10/32-celebrities-who-became-famous-for-virtually-no-reason/amp/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.mercurynews.com/2016/05/10/... You don't remember them because their contributions are inconsequential or you consider them consequential because they leveraged their fame into something that resembles accomplishment. > But my grandparents were born in homes without electricity or plumbing. They did not turn to prostitution or aspire to the 'least' they could be. What? > Because being a great athlete or artists (or scientist etc.) is not 'a propos of nothing'. Really? Has knowing who Pete Townsend or Kurt Cobain or Andy Warhol or Dolly Parton is enriched your or anyone else's life? Knowing their produce may have. Why is heaping accolades upon them and deriving influence from them warranted?
- jollybean 4y ago
  > You just proved my point, because the list you provided does not go back that far, and, almost none of those people are famous. > People of generations past did not generally aspire to take the easiest, lowliest path to some kind of arbitrary success. > Your delving into whataboutery trying to argue that artists, especially those who are also entertainers don't contribute something. You could argue the same about anything.
  - DubiousPusher 4y ago
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nan_Kempner https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nan_Kempner https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zsa_Zsa_Gabor https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zsa_Zsa_Gabor https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Toya_Jackson https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Toya_Jackson https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Winkler https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Winkler https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raquel_Welch https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raquel_Welch https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Popoff https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Popoff https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diana,_Princess_of_Wales https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diana,_Princess_of_Wales https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice_Roosevelt_Longworth https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice_Roosevelt_Longworth https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edie_Sedgwick https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edie_Sedgwick Vogue magazine made many women nationaly famous who would've otherwise been known only within a certain social set by dubbing them "it girl" or "girl of the year". I never said entertainers don't contribute. I explicitly said their products may in fact have a positive impact on people. I just don't agree that that warrants fame. IMO, a lot of people knowing about you or your work is different from the concept of fame as discussed here.
    - jollybean 4y ago
      ? I don't think this list helps your argument. There's always a few rich socialites lingering around almost nobody knows who they are - and they were not aspirational figures. Henry Winkler is an actor, for god's sake, he was the Fonzarelli, one of the most iconic characters on Television, he's still acting on award winning productions to this day. Raquel Welch (?) is at least working actress. Look at her IMDB [1]. There's nary a single year since 1960 where she wasn't doing some film or made for TV Movie tripe. Never, ever, in my early life (pre 2000) did I meet someone who either 1) knew much about socialites or 2) aspired to be one. [1] https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000079/ https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000079/
wiseowise 4y ago
> Nope. Which list of people 30 years ago were 'famous for being famous' and which cohort of society aspired to be them? Name names. It was not 'a thing' aside from a few random, quixotic people. Nobody wanted to 'be them' or thought they could be that. People started doing X because some famous person did X is the story as old as times. You, of all people, should know that, given how many Software Engineers started because they wanted to be Jobs, Gates, Carmack, etc. > Yes, we live in different circumstances, that's fair. But my grandparents were born in homes without electricity or plumbing. They did not turn to prostitution or aspire to the 'least' they could be. What prostitution? > Because being a great athlete or artists (or scientist etc.) is not 'a propos of nothing'. Yes, it's a bit glib for people to fanboy athlete's the way we do, and Michael Jordan is a jerk, but he's also a spectacular athlete. And popular influencers are great marketers, comic artists, entertainers.
bawolff 4y ago
> But my grandparents were born in homes without electricity or plumbing. They did not turn to prostitution or aspire to the 'least' they could be. If you go back several generations, its even worse - they aspired to mary into the aristocracy. Talk about glamour based on nothing.

DubiousPusher 4y ago

> Which list of people 30 years ago were 'famous for being famous' and which cohort of society aspired to be them? Name names. This was the life blood of MTV 30 years ago. To this list I'd add all those pickup artist cretons, half the food network and Donald Trump. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.mercurynews.com/2016/05/10/32-celebrities-who-became-famous-for-virtually-no-reason/amp/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.mercurynews.com/2016/05/10/... You don't remember them because their contributions are inconsequential or you consider them consequential because they leveraged their fame into something that resembles accomplishment. > But my grandparents were born in homes without electricity or plumbing. They did not turn to prostitution or aspire to the 'least' they could be. What? > Because being a great athlete or artists (or scientist etc.) is not 'a propos of nothing'. Really? Has knowing who Pete Townsend or Kurt Cobain or Andy Warhol or Dolly Parton is enriched your or anyone else's life? Knowing their produce may have. Why is heaping accolades upon them and deriving influence from them warranted?

jollybean 4y ago
> You just proved my point, because the list you provided does not go back that far, and, almost none of those people are famous. > People of generations past did not generally aspire to take the easiest, lowliest path to some kind of arbitrary success. > Your delving into whataboutery trying to argue that artists, especially those who are also entertainers don't contribute something. You could argue the same about anything.
- DubiousPusher 4y ago
  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nan_Kempner https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nan_Kempner https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zsa_Zsa_Gabor https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zsa_Zsa_Gabor https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Toya_Jackson https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Toya_Jackson https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Winkler https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Winkler https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raquel_Welch https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raquel_Welch https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Popoff https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Popoff https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diana,_Princess_of_Wales https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diana,_Princess_of_Wales https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice_Roosevelt_Longworth https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice_Roosevelt_Longworth https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edie_Sedgwick https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edie_Sedgwick Vogue magazine made many women nationaly famous who would've otherwise been known only within a certain social set by dubbing them "it girl" or "girl of the year". I never said entertainers don't contribute. I explicitly said their products may in fact have a positive impact on people. I just don't agree that that warrants fame. IMO, a lot of people knowing about you or your work is different from the concept of fame as discussed here.
  - jollybean 4y ago
    ? I don't think this list helps your argument. There's always a few rich socialites lingering around almost nobody knows who they are - and they were not aspirational figures. Henry Winkler is an actor, for god's sake, he was the Fonzarelli, one of the most iconic characters on Television, he's still acting on award winning productions to this day. Raquel Welch (?) is at least working actress. Look at her IMDB [1]. There's nary a single year since 1960 where she wasn't doing some film or made for TV Movie tripe. Never, ever, in my early life (pre 2000) did I meet someone who either 1) knew much about socialites or 2) aspired to be one. [1] https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000079/ https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000079/

wiseowise 4y ago

> Nope. Which list of people 30 years ago were 'famous for being famous' and which cohort of society aspired to be them? Name names. It was not 'a thing' aside from a few random, quixotic people. Nobody wanted to 'be them' or thought they could be that. People started doing X because some famous person did X is the story as old as times. You, of all people, should know that, given how many Software Engineers started because they wanted to be Jobs, Gates, Carmack, etc. > Yes, we live in different circumstances, that's fair. But my grandparents were born in homes without electricity or plumbing. They did not turn to prostitution or aspire to the 'least' they could be. What prostitution? > Because being a great athlete or artists (or scientist etc.) is not 'a propos of nothing'. Yes, it's a bit glib for people to fanboy athlete's the way we do, and Michael Jordan is a jerk, but he's also a spectacular athlete. And popular influencers are great marketers, comic artists, entertainers.

bawolff 4y ago

> But my grandparents were born in homes without electricity or plumbing. They did not turn to prostitution or aspire to the 'least' they could be. If you go back several generations, its even worse - they aspired to mary into the aristocracy. Talk about glamour based on nothing.