4 ms·

My trigonometry is lacking, but here's a challenge: Try and get some of the classic 808 noises out of wolfram alpha.

wazoox 15y ago
808 doesn't use FM, but VCOs with low pass filters (aka "analog synthesis"). Yamaha synths from the 80s, OTOH, were running on FM (the DX7 being the best known member of this large family). The most "interesting" FM synth probably was the original NED Synclavier, but it's rarer than the white tiger and was as expensive, back then (probably still costs an arm and a leg nowadays).
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
- zinkem 15y ago
  >808 doesn't use FM, but VCOs with low pass filters (aka "analog synthesis"). There are actually two ideas at play here. Manipulating a signal from a VCO, or any other 'analog' signal is called analog synthesis. These analog signals can be used as the source in other types of synthesis, including FM synthesis. FM synthesis tends to be done using digital signals because they are more stable, however. Using high/low/band pass filters to filter your signal is called "subtractive synthesis" because you are subtracting frequencies from the original waveform.
  - wazoox 15y ago
    > These analog signals can be used as the source in other types of synthesis, including FM synthesis. FM synthesis tends to be done using digital signals because they are more stable, however. Yes, some analog synths of lore (EMS gear IIRC) could actually create FM sounds, but the oscillators limited stability made it unusable for musical sounds. AFAIK The latest generation of Yamaha FM synths (SY/TG77, SY99) could apparently use any oscillators including audio samples for FM. Unfortunately FM synth always were notoriously hard to program, because of the lack of intuitiveness of the sound behaviour (as opposed to oscillators and filters), that finally led to their demise. > Using high/low/band pass filters to filter your signal is called "subtractive synthesis" because you are subtracting frequencies from the original waveform. You're right, that's the proper term. By the way the Synclavier was altogether an FM, substractive and addditive synth :) Side note, I'm wondering why additive synthesis never really get any significant foothold (who used a PPG? a Kawai K5?).
    - Roboprog 15y ago
      Additive synthesis is tedious, having to specify every harmonic and its relative strength. No surprises when doing additive, just lots of work. (I'm assuming you mean adding stacks of sine waves, rather than layering different patches on the same note)
- effn 15y ago
  The 808 has specialized synthesis circuits for every sound. Nowhere does it use a traditional VCO+Filter circuit AFAIK.
  - wazoox 15y ago
    That's true, but on the other hand the principle of operation for these specialized circuits was actually a traditional (though of course simplified) bunch of oscillators or noise generators, with simple filters, all controlled by simple envelopes. There may have been a ring modulator (for the bell?) somewhere too :)
    - JonnieCache 15y ago
      I was mainly thinking of the bass, which is simply a big fat sine wave with a lowpass, and then a short clicking noise at the start, which is basically just a sine as well. You can replicate it well enough with just those two elements anyway. The snare is just some white noise and a highpassed sinewave. The bell definitely sounds like it has ring modulation. I seem to remember the cowbell being the hardest one to rip off. The toms were tricky as well. On the other hand, my fake 808 had a dub siren built in, a tape delay, overdrive and it could do triplet beats. It was awesome. That whole lab class was most amusing.
      - effn 15y ago
        The bassdrum is just an impulse exciting a lowpass filter at very high resonance. The clicking noise is generated by a specialized envelope that raises the pitch of the filter for the first few ms. The whole thing is then slightly overdriven to color the sound. Filtering a sine wave makes little sense, as you'll only end up altering the volume (unless you take the phase respone of the filter into account but this should be barely audible).
        wazoox 15y ago
        That reminds me of the phase change synthesis of the Casio CZ :) I'm wondering if there's something (software or else) still able to do it?

808 doesn't use FM, but VCOs with low pass filters (aka "analog synthesis"). Yamaha synths from the 80s, OTOH, were running on FM (the DX7 being the best known member of this large family). The most "interesting" FM synth probably was the original NED Synclavier, but it's rarer than the white tiger and was as expensive, back then (probably still costs an arm and a leg nowadays).

deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
zinkem 15y ago
>808 doesn't use FM, but VCOs with low pass filters (aka "analog synthesis"). There are actually two ideas at play here. Manipulating a signal from a VCO, or any other 'analog' signal is called analog synthesis. These analog signals can be used as the source in other types of synthesis, including FM synthesis. FM synthesis tends to be done using digital signals because they are more stable, however. Using high/low/band pass filters to filter your signal is called "subtractive synthesis" because you are subtracting frequencies from the original waveform.
- wazoox 15y ago
  > These analog signals can be used as the source in other types of synthesis, including FM synthesis. FM synthesis tends to be done using digital signals because they are more stable, however. Yes, some analog synths of lore (EMS gear IIRC) could actually create FM sounds, but the oscillators limited stability made it unusable for musical sounds. AFAIK The latest generation of Yamaha FM synths (SY/TG77, SY99) could apparently use any oscillators including audio samples for FM. Unfortunately FM synth always were notoriously hard to program, because of the lack of intuitiveness of the sound behaviour (as opposed to oscillators and filters), that finally led to their demise. > Using high/low/band pass filters to filter your signal is called "subtractive synthesis" because you are subtracting frequencies from the original waveform. You're right, that's the proper term. By the way the Synclavier was altogether an FM, substractive and addditive synth :) Side note, I'm wondering why additive synthesis never really get any significant foothold (who used a PPG? a Kawai K5?).
  - Roboprog 15y ago
    Additive synthesis is tedious, having to specify every harmonic and its relative strength. No surprises when doing additive, just lots of work. (I'm assuming you mean adding stacks of sine waves, rather than layering different patches on the same note)
effn 15y ago
The 808 has specialized synthesis circuits for every sound. Nowhere does it use a traditional VCO+Filter circuit AFAIK.
- wazoox 15y ago
  That's true, but on the other hand the principle of operation for these specialized circuits was actually a traditional (though of course simplified) bunch of oscillators or noise generators, with simple filters, all controlled by simple envelopes. There may have been a ring modulator (for the bell?) somewhere too :)
  - JonnieCache 15y ago
    I was mainly thinking of the bass, which is simply a big fat sine wave with a lowpass, and then a short clicking noise at the start, which is basically just a sine as well. You can replicate it well enough with just those two elements anyway. The snare is just some white noise and a highpassed sinewave. The bell definitely sounds like it has ring modulation. I seem to remember the cowbell being the hardest one to rip off. The toms were tricky as well. On the other hand, my fake 808 had a dub siren built in, a tape delay, overdrive and it could do triplet beats. It was awesome. That whole lab class was most amusing.
    - effn 15y ago
      The bassdrum is just an impulse exciting a lowpass filter at very high resonance. The clicking noise is generated by a specialized envelope that raises the pitch of the filter for the first few ms. The whole thing is then slightly overdriven to color the sound. Filtering a sine wave makes little sense, as you'll only end up altering the volume (unless you take the phase respone of the filter into account but this should be barely audible).
      - wazoox 15y ago
        That reminds me of the phase change synthesis of the Casio CZ :) I'm wondering if there's something (software or else) still able to do it?