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Traditional draftsmanship (not really tech is it?), as in with a pen/pencil on a draftsman table, has completely disappeared. My father is a (relatively) recen

Traditional draftsmanship (not really tech is it?), as in with a pen/pencil on a draftsman table, has completely disappeared. My father is a (relatively) recently retired Architect, he ran a small but specialist firm of about 20 people. By the time he retired about 5 years ago there was no one in the office that had ever been trained in traditional draftsmanship, only himself. It’s a lost art. There are now almost two generations of working architects, those that learnt 2D CAD in the 90s and early 00s who still think in 3d and translate it themselves to 2d in cad (a little like traditional draftsmanship). And those since who have only ever worked in 3d and used the tooling to “project” 2d elevations and sections. I trained at university in the early 2000s in Industrial Design, we did some traditional drafting lesions (maybe three or four weeks). But then jumped straight to 3d CAD and never looked back. I suspect they don’t even do those lessons now, and in fact most kids have probably done some 3D cad at school, maybe only 10% had when I started.

carabiner 4y ago
Do you want to bring this back? CAD is a productivity multiplier. It's like composing a document in MS Word vs hand writing it.
- samwillis 4y ago
  Yes, architecture and design is an art form, the medium in which you work influences the design process and the output you create. I’m not saying all architects and designers should return to the drafting table, but it is a shame that the knowledge of how to work like that is disappearing from the workplace. Also, not everything always needs to be “efficient”, what’s wrong with working slowly if you can then create an even better result.
  - jckahn 4y ago
    How does the slower process lead to a superior result, exactly? Are there designs that modern CAD systems can't achieve that the older process could? If so, perhaps it would be more practical to focus on closing that gap by improving our modern tooling.
    - groby_b 4y ago
      Modern CAD systems tend to produce reproducible, very similar systems. Drafting produces individualized solutions. "Superior" depends on what you want. (For housing, I want individualized so badly. If I see one more SillyValley SWE storehouse - excuse me, "luxury housing" - I'm going to vomit. They're all exactly the same. I'm fairly certain the firms involved have traded macros or something) I'm not sure you can close that gap. I've done both drafting and CAD design (amateur level), and... you approach the space differently. Drafting almost forces you to have a plan, while CAD very much is "as you go".
      - astrange 4y ago
        Housing is super expensive in SFBA because it's all individual. In SF any housing project needs to make it through design meetings where all your neighbors make arbitrary aesthetic complaints about how it looks and how it casts shadows on things. To get housing back to the rates it was built (and the price you could buy it at) in the 60s it needs to be a hundred times faster and more factory manufactured, not less. Luckily, if you wait a hundred years people will like anything. That's the only reason people like mass-produced Eichlers, SF Victorians, and NYC brownstones.
        groby_b 4y ago
        I mean, I know the Bay Area fails to understand that, but you scale up housing by building more multi-level housing, not faster building of single homes. And what multi-level housing there is being built is absolutely devoid of any creativity already, it can't really get more factory-like.
    - wheelinsupial 4y ago
      I’m struggling with this thread. I’m not sure what’s superior in the old approach. You’re able to perform much more robust and detailed calculations using computers compared to hand. You’re able to iterate more rapidly. The only thing I can think of is that the designer or engineer has more time to ruminate on their design. Or there is no artistry in a computer generated print. It’s probably the bias in my training (mechanical engineering tech and not architecture or industrial design) and what I’m trying to accomplish through drafting, but I don’t get this romanticism for hand drafting. My program, in the mid-2010s, had 13 weeks of hand drafting. The program still does that in the 2020s. My program emphasized sketching and drafting as a core component of the engineering design process. So hand drafting is still taught, and there may be sampling bias at play in the other comments. Or my hand drafting isn’t “real hand drafting.” Sketching allows you to iterate through different designs early on. You then move into the detailed design which results in the manufacturing specs. For example, hole sizing and location, material thickness. We absolutely did all of these calculations by hand in our courses, so you need to be able to draw something out. You’d simplify and not worry about completely accurate proportions, though. I guess before the rise of CAD systems, you’d hand over a bunch of rough design papers with the final dimensions for a drafter to prepare the final print. However, with computers we now do the detailed design through computer aided engineering (CAE) software. This requires a 3D model of what you’re building. You run the simulation and find out that the thickness of the material isn’t suitable, so you change the thickness in the model and re-run the simulation. This CAE process gives the engineer the 2D print for “free.” All the information needed to create the 2D print are embedded in the 3D model. You just pick which projections you want in 2D and you specify the dimensions and tolerance. Now that’s done and there is no need to draft it by hand.
- sbuk 4y ago
  A beautifully draughty schematic or plan is something to behold - with carefully considered weight of line, and perfectly executed detailing. This can absolutely achieved with 2D CAD draughting, and is indeed quicker than hand draughting, but with that productivity gain, thinking time is reduced. The knock on effect is timescales for project completion are lost, then everything becomes a kt of parts and looks the same. This has been worsened, IMHO especially in architecture, by BIM tools like Revit and ArchiCAD. There are an awful lot of "Revity" buildings going up...
kradeelav 4y ago
My father has a background that's eerily similar to yours, right down to running a firm the same size, and he feels the same way you and yours does (so do I). It truly is a lost art and there's a lot more hidden knowledge and reward that comes with knowing traditional drafting than it may appear on the surface. Patience, precision, a sense of intuitive aesthetics, and how to arrange a composition on paper to tell a story effectively ... thank you for sharing this comment, I'll have to tell him somebody else agrees. :)
gen220 4y ago
I think this craft is well-documented in books, even if it's disappearing from common practice, no [1]? In general, I've found books are an underrated source of technical information like this. The library of congress is probably doing a pretty good job of preserving the knowledge needed to bootstrap civilization. For example, I have a few books on country wood-crafting that have enabled me to become pretty self-sufficient on a rural property. Even though there's no woodworking knowledge in my circle of friends or family. YMMV depending on the craft, but the scope of knowledge documented in dead-tree mediums is both vast and deep. [1]: For example, I found this with 40 seconds of effort. I know it's old, but that might contribute to it being more interesting: https://www.loc.gov/resource/gdcmassbookdig.easystepsinarch00hodg/?sp=7&r=-0.093,-0.022,1.282,0.85,0 https://www.loc.gov/resource/gdcmassbookdig.easystepsinarch0...
7952 4y ago
My complaint about cad is the exact opposite. That those traditional techniques have too much influence on how people use cad and how cad software was designed. People use low level abstractions that leave far too much to interpretation.
- samwillis 4y ago
  I would love to hear more of your thoughts on that. I could see that being the case with 2d focussed cad tools such as AutoCad, however “3d first” tools like Revit for architecture or SolidWorks for product design are so far removed form traditional drafting I don’t realy see any alignment.
  - 7952 4y ago
    I work in an infrastructure field with lots of engineering disciplines doing separate design. Designs are typically exchanged in AutoCAD even when a 3d tool are used to make them. Or AutoCAD is used to do design work in 3D. BIM exists but is just another data silo. A lot of the large engineering companies will try and push their own BIM solution which adds one more silo that no one else uses. Everyone wants their own system and solution to be the single source of truth and that is a huge part of the problem. On a project of thousands of people there is never going to be a single source of truth. It's like expecting a globally distributed system to be in sync. Ultimately you have to chose between locking and eventual consistency and there is no other option. Having a single BIM system helps but is not a silver bullet. Because people will still get out of sync as other teams and tools are brought into play.
- halffaday 4y ago
  I agree. The purpose of plans is to transfer information about design intent for specific construction outcomes. Years ago, this was done by paper because there was not another efficient option. For the last few decades, this hasn’t been necessary, but we still produce paper products. Now roadway and earthwork folks tend to lean on digital models, but that’s after bidding and only for a handful of items. There’s “BIM” but nobody can actually tell you in concrete terms what that is. I don’t know what we should be doing to deliver construction projects efficiently, but I’m pretty sure it’s not this.
panzagl 4y ago
Tell your Dad to start making youtube videos- that seems like the best way to preserve that kind of knowledge.
- samwillis 4y ago
  Ha! Not sure that would happen, he’s practically a luddite.
xpe 4y ago
Try Shapr3D on macOS and iOS and I think you'll be pleasantly surprised -- maybe even shocked -- at how amazing CAD software can be. Should be. The UX quality is exceptional and inspiring. P.S. I have no connection to the product or company (based in Budapest I think).
- samwillis 4y ago
  Oh now that looks interesting, I haven’t come across that. Being based on Parasolid should make it a rock solid cad tool. Will have to give it a go!
22c 4y ago
A family relative of mine is a qualified draftsman and unfortunately had to pick up stacking shelves at the grocery store because he wasn't able to get enough work ad a draftsman to support his family. I suspect an architect + engineer is all that's really needed these days, or perhaps even an architect that knows enough engineering, or an engineer that knows enough architecture.

carabiner 4y ago

Do you want to bring this back? CAD is a productivity multiplier. It's like composing a document in MS Word vs hand writing it.

samwillis 4y ago
Yes, architecture and design is an art form, the medium in which you work influences the design process and the output you create. I’m not saying all architects and designers should return to the drafting table, but it is a shame that the knowledge of how to work like that is disappearing from the workplace. Also, not everything always needs to be “efficient”, what’s wrong with working slowly if you can then create an even better result.
- jckahn 4y ago
  How does the slower process lead to a superior result, exactly? Are there designs that modern CAD systems can't achieve that the older process could? If so, perhaps it would be more practical to focus on closing that gap by improving our modern tooling.
  - groby_b 4y ago
    Modern CAD systems tend to produce reproducible, very similar systems. Drafting produces individualized solutions. "Superior" depends on what you want. (For housing, I want individualized so badly. If I see one more SillyValley SWE storehouse - excuse me, "luxury housing" - I'm going to vomit. They're all exactly the same. I'm fairly certain the firms involved have traded macros or something) I'm not sure you can close that gap. I've done both drafting and CAD design (amateur level), and... you approach the space differently. Drafting almost forces you to have a plan, while CAD very much is "as you go".
    - astrange 4y ago
      Housing is super expensive in SFBA because it's all individual. In SF any housing project needs to make it through design meetings where all your neighbors make arbitrary aesthetic complaints about how it looks and how it casts shadows on things. To get housing back to the rates it was built (and the price you could buy it at) in the 60s it needs to be a hundred times faster and more factory manufactured, not less. Luckily, if you wait a hundred years people will like anything. That's the only reason people like mass-produced Eichlers, SF Victorians, and NYC brownstones.
      - groby_b 4y ago
        I mean, I know the Bay Area fails to understand that, but you scale up housing by building more multi-level housing, not faster building of single homes. And what multi-level housing there is being built is absolutely devoid of any creativity already, it can't really get more factory-like.
  - wheelinsupial 4y ago
    I’m struggling with this thread. I’m not sure what’s superior in the old approach. You’re able to perform much more robust and detailed calculations using computers compared to hand. You’re able to iterate more rapidly. The only thing I can think of is that the designer or engineer has more time to ruminate on their design. Or there is no artistry in a computer generated print. It’s probably the bias in my training (mechanical engineering tech and not architecture or industrial design) and what I’m trying to accomplish through drafting, but I don’t get this romanticism for hand drafting. My program, in the mid-2010s, had 13 weeks of hand drafting. The program still does that in the 2020s. My program emphasized sketching and drafting as a core component of the engineering design process. So hand drafting is still taught, and there may be sampling bias at play in the other comments. Or my hand drafting isn’t “real hand drafting.” Sketching allows you to iterate through different designs early on. You then move into the detailed design which results in the manufacturing specs. For example, hole sizing and location, material thickness. We absolutely did all of these calculations by hand in our courses, so you need to be able to draw something out. You’d simplify and not worry about completely accurate proportions, though. I guess before the rise of CAD systems, you’d hand over a bunch of rough design papers with the final dimensions for a drafter to prepare the final print. However, with computers we now do the detailed design through computer aided engineering (CAE) software. This requires a 3D model of what you’re building. You run the simulation and find out that the thickness of the material isn’t suitable, so you change the thickness in the model and re-run the simulation. This CAE process gives the engineer the 2D print for “free.” All the information needed to create the 2D print are embedded in the 3D model. You just pick which projections you want in 2D and you specify the dimensions and tolerance. Now that’s done and there is no need to draft it by hand.
sbuk 4y ago
A beautifully draughty schematic or plan is something to behold - with carefully considered weight of line, and perfectly executed detailing. This can absolutely achieved with 2D CAD draughting, and is indeed quicker than hand draughting, but with that productivity gain, thinking time is reduced. The knock on effect is timescales for project completion are lost, then everything becomes a kt of parts and looks the same. This has been worsened, IMHO especially in architecture, by BIM tools like Revit and ArchiCAD. There are an awful lot of "Revity" buildings going up...

kradeelav 4y ago

My father has a background that's eerily similar to yours, right down to running a firm the same size, and he feels the same way you and yours does (so do I). It truly is a lost art and there's a lot more hidden knowledge and reward that comes with knowing traditional drafting than it may appear on the surface. Patience, precision, a sense of intuitive aesthetics, and how to arrange a composition on paper to tell a story effectively ... thank you for sharing this comment, I'll have to tell him somebody else agrees. :)

gen220 4y ago

I think this craft is well-documented in books, even if it's disappearing from common practice, no [1]? In general, I've found books are an underrated source of technical information like this. The library of congress is probably doing a pretty good job of preserving the knowledge needed to bootstrap civilization. For example, I have a few books on country wood-crafting that have enabled me to become pretty self-sufficient on a rural property. Even though there's no woodworking knowledge in my circle of friends or family. YMMV depending on the craft, but the scope of knowledge documented in dead-tree mediums is both vast and deep. [1]: For example, I found this with 40 seconds of effort. I know it's old, but that might contribute to it being more interesting: https://www.loc.gov/resource/gdcmassbookdig.easystepsinarch00hodg/?sp=7&r=-0.093,-0.022,1.282,0.85,0 https://www.loc.gov/resource/gdcmassbookdig.easystepsinarch0...

7952 4y ago

My complaint about cad is the exact opposite. That those traditional techniques have too much influence on how people use cad and how cad software was designed. People use low level abstractions that leave far too much to interpretation.

samwillis 4y ago
I would love to hear more of your thoughts on that. I could see that being the case with 2d focussed cad tools such as AutoCad, however “3d first” tools like Revit for architecture or SolidWorks for product design are so far removed form traditional drafting I don’t realy see any alignment.
- 7952 4y ago
  I work in an infrastructure field with lots of engineering disciplines doing separate design. Designs are typically exchanged in AutoCAD even when a 3d tool are used to make them. Or AutoCAD is used to do design work in 3D. BIM exists but is just another data silo. A lot of the large engineering companies will try and push their own BIM solution which adds one more silo that no one else uses. Everyone wants their own system and solution to be the single source of truth and that is a huge part of the problem. On a project of thousands of people there is never going to be a single source of truth. It's like expecting a globally distributed system to be in sync. Ultimately you have to chose between locking and eventual consistency and there is no other option. Having a single BIM system helps but is not a silver bullet. Because people will still get out of sync as other teams and tools are brought into play.
halffaday 4y ago
I agree. The purpose of plans is to transfer information about design intent for specific construction outcomes. Years ago, this was done by paper because there was not another efficient option. For the last few decades, this hasn’t been necessary, but we still produce paper products. Now roadway and earthwork folks tend to lean on digital models, but that’s after bidding and only for a handful of items. There’s “BIM” but nobody can actually tell you in concrete terms what that is. I don’t know what we should be doing to deliver construction projects efficiently, but I’m pretty sure it’s not this.

panzagl 4y ago

Tell your Dad to start making youtube videos- that seems like the best way to preserve that kind of knowledge.

samwillis 4y ago
Ha! Not sure that would happen, he’s practically a luddite.

xpe 4y ago

Try Shapr3D on macOS and iOS and I think you'll be pleasantly surprised -- maybe even shocked -- at how amazing CAD software can be. Should be. The UX quality is exceptional and inspiring. P.S. I have no connection to the product or company (based in Budapest I think).

samwillis 4y ago
Oh now that looks interesting, I haven’t come across that. Being based on Parasolid should make it a rock solid cad tool. Will have to give it a go!

22c 4y ago

A family relative of mine is a qualified draftsman and unfortunately had to pick up stacking shelves at the grocery store because he wasn't able to get enough work ad a draftsman to support his family. I suspect an architect + engineer is all that's really needed these days, or perhaps even an architect that knows enough engineering, or an engineer that knows enough architecture.