6 ms·

NumWorks: An open-source graphing calculator (with Python and Rust support)

128 points by semenko 4y ago

semenko 4y ago
I just stumbled upon NumWorks and was excited to see some competition for TI's calculator monopoly [1]. It looks like NumWorks is open source (including the hardware) [2] and supports Python and Rust! [3] [1] https://gen.medium.com/big-calculator-how-texas-instruments-monopolized-math-class-67ee165045dc https://gen.medium.com/big-calculator-how-texas-instruments-... [2] https://www.numworks.com/resources/engineering/ https://www.numworks.com/resources/engineering/ [3] https://github.com/numworks/epsilon-sample-app-rust https://github.com/numworks/epsilon-sample-app-rust
- jpbadan 4y ago
  Unfortunately It seems it's not open source anymore https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JSxBn_gxWXA https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JSxBn_gxWXA
  - belthesar 4y ago
    That's a gross oversimplification. From the video the poster provided: * V16 of the Epsilon OS by Numworks removed the ability to install custom operating systems to the device in response to pressure from the Dutch education department, who had adopted the calculator as the standard for their education system. This was due to information provided by a different Youtuber accusing the platform of being used for cheating, and then provided modified versions of the OS that enabled cheating support by working around the Exam Mode functions. A fair and true statement would be that the NumWorks calculator was originally marketed as open hardware, and that functionality was removed (similar to Sony removing OtherOS from PS3's).
    - josephcsible 4y ago
      It's tivoized hardware running closed-but-visible-source software. It's not an oversimplification at all to say it's not open source.
josephcsible 4y ago
NumWorks is not open source. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28344087 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28344087
nsajko 4y ago
Mods, please correct the editorialized and wrong title. NumWorks isn't open source and never was. What it is is source-available, because the source is available. Or at least it still was available the last time I looked at it. NumWorks used to be fun because it had an unlocked bootloader, allowing users to download their own software onto the calculator. But then they did a face-heel turn. To NumWorks' credit, I'm sure the UI is still miles ahead of Texas Instruments calculators. EDIT: it seems NumWorks now allows users to download "apps" onto their devices. This is nice, of course, but still a far cry from the unlocked bootloader situation.
- rpdillon 4y ago
  I've engaged in debates on HN about the definition of "open source" in the past, so there might be some disagreement about the meaning of the title. I've settled on using "OSI open source" to avoid this, since those discussions are uniformly tiring and unproductive. That said, I agree with parent: the repo specifically has a section regarding copyright and it simply says that all rights are reserved[0]. This is proprietary software, disallowing copying, distribution, and derivative works. It's weird, since even cloning the repo appears to be a violation of their stated terms, though they supply instructions for building the software yourself that of course requires copying the code to your machine first[1]. Copyright is weird. [0]: https://github.com/numworks/epsilon#copyright https://github.com/numworks/epsilon#copyright [1]: https://www.numworks.com/resources/engineering/software/build/ https://www.numworks.com/resources/engineering/software/buil... Edit: Figured it out. License was changed 13 months ago: https://github.com/numworks/epsilon/commit/b1ea81f067f5fef3fcf03606638c394e36f88096 https://github.com/numworks/epsilon/commit/b1ea81f067f5fef3f...
  - gpm 4y ago
    Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer and you should not rely on this as legal advice. Even if I'm right, it would be a stupid and expensive lawsuit. I think that under US law you can legally clone it from github [1] and build/run it [2] without a license. [1] GitHub has a valid license to create copies by virtue of their TOS. You aren't creating a copy, github is, and they are then lawfully transferring it to you. [2] This is explicitly called out as something you can legally do without a license in copyright law. "All rights reserved" is just the lack of a license and doesn't prevent you from doing things that weren't illegal in the first place.: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/117 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/117
CrazedGeek 4y ago
There’s a forked version of the OS called Omega that’s really nice: https://github.com/Omega-Numworks/Omega https://github.com/Omega-Numworks/Omega And apparently a jailbreak for Epsilon 16+: https://phi.getomega.dev/ https://phi.getomega.dev/
- homarp 4y ago
  and a symbolic algebra system for Omega, https://www-fourier.univ-grenoble-alpes.fr/~parisse/numworks/khicasnw.html https://www-fourier.univ-grenoble-alpes.fr/~parisse/numworks... (it's a port/adaptation of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xcas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xcas )
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- gbraad 4y ago
  upsilon is were the development continued
jedisct1 4y ago
It doesn't support Rust at all. There's just a GitHub repository with a toy example in Rust, that uses nothing but direct unsafe calls to five C functions. But Python, yeah, definitely. That's the beauty of this calculator.
- nsajko 4y ago
  > But Python, yeah, definitely. Well, it's a forked MicroPython. It doesn't actually support Python, just something similar to Python.
agumonkey 4y ago
i wish to make a toy version of that on an esp32, with a RPL system on top (of course)
satiric 4y ago
I think the creators do legitimately want to build a truly open source calculator. The problem is getting the calculator registered for exams - the examiners naturally want to make sure that the calculator isn't being used for cheating. And any method to replace the firmware, add custom applications, etc. can and should be viewed as a way to cheat on exams. Personally, I'm hopefully never going to take another standardized exam in my life - I'd like to see a graphing calculator that doesn't attempt to get certified for exams or school use, since this seems to be such a significant hurdle. But I know I'm in the 0.1% of graphing calculator users who don't care about AP/IB/the SAT/whatever.
- nsajko 4y ago
  > I think the creators do legitimately want to build a truly open source calculator. Somewhat like Google legitimately wants to "do no evil"? Sometimes it is said that deeds, not words is what matters. But in this case even the words are missing, so I don't really get what you're trying to say.
  - satiric 4y ago
    My point is that ultimately it was more important for them to make a calculator that students could actually use - which is a perfectly reasonable goal. And it's a shame that that's fundamentally incompatible with FOSS.
    - eternityforest 4y ago
      Seems highly insane that students have to buy a calculator, that can basically never be used outside of school for many people because it's so limited.... Why can't the school just have a pile of them? Then they can be totally FOSS. The teacher hands you one, they know the FW is good, you give it back, and if you want to practice at home, you can buy yourself the unlocked version which would be fully open and have more communications so it could be repurposed. Then the same device can be sold as a smarthome IoT remote like a better Logitech Harmony, or various other random uses, and have more economies of scale. In fact, it could just be a cheap Android device sans GPS, with no front camera(A cheap rear camera is always good for QR setup) and with real buttons and a smaller screen. Lower resolution + transflective display + 30hz + fewer background apps is going to significantly increase battery life. Then people can try out the CAS features on their phone, and use their calculator for whatever they might want, since it's become the obvious choice for IoT stuff.
geophertz 4y ago
These calculators are very popular in France. I know of a lot of teachers who use them for teaching.
bb88 4y ago
I have one. It's great. It's quite an amazing bit of tech. I wish they would split out the market, though, one for the educational market for tests and the like, and one for the professionals with wireless and more open capabilities. I would like for instance to ship images of graphs to use in a web page. Or to use it as a keyboard to type equations and calculations into documents. Or to have it connect to PyPI say to grab programs that can calculate complex equations.... etc.
- charles_kaw 4y ago
  I have long believed that there is a huge market for some sort of rudimentary TI-style CAS system, with a caveat. Something that works on embedded arm devices, but is screen aware enough to be ported to a desktop. If you include bluetooth in your calculator hardware, you now have an excellent input device for an onscreen CAS - or maybe something more like a screencast. Extend this concept far enough, and we're talking about something like OP is describing - easy to sync and share small programs and tools. Further integration with excel and other tabulated data sources, and you've got a real killer on your hands.
- a-dub 4y ago
  matlab or octave (oss clone) may be of interest to you. for symbolic math try wolfram alpha, the matlab symbolic math toolbox or one of the symbolic math packages available for python.
solarized 4y ago
Beautiful design. but, another devices in my bag? no thank you. my phones already solve almost anything.
- j-james 4y ago
  Well, you might be interested to know that they provide an emulator of their calculator for free on mobile (and through the browser). https://www.numworks.com/simulator https://www.numworks.com/simulator
jhallenworld 4y ago
Numworks is interesting, but not really that great. The two things I don't like are: 1. the Android app is a strictly a physical calculator emulator, and does not try to be the best possible calculator for Android. 2. On the real calculator, the user interface is pretty slow- sure, it's responsive, but it's not very efficient. So for example, it comes in last on this benchmark: https://github.com/jhallen/calculator/wiki https://github.com/jhallen/calculator/wiki
- nsajko 4y ago
  Software isn't the worst thing for UI efficiency on NumWorks: the buttons are very low quality. So not only are many key presses necessary (according to your benchmark), but each key press must be relatively carefully performed to avoid the wrong key being actuated, for example. That said, the NumWorks UI is quite intuitive.
skavi 4y ago
How do the buttons feel?
hirebackenddev 4y ago
wow, this is awesome!
wscott 4y ago
This thing looks a whole lot like the HP Prime[0] calculator. From the icons to select the "applications" (aka modes) and the pop up menus. That said the HP has a color screen and from the looks of it better buttons. Too bad HP didn't care enough about calculators to make the prime live up to its potential. [0]: https://hpcalcs.com/product/hp-prime-graphing-calculator/ https://hpcalcs.com/product/hp-prime-graphing-calculator/
gbraad 4y ago
The NumWorks is now a fauxpensource device. They changed their license months ago after a debacle with their exam mode. Delta/Upsilon firmware are based on the pre-license change firmware. Where does the statement around rust support come from?
- josephcsible 4y ago
  That's all true, but there's one more key point that makes it even worse than that: the hardware is tivoized.

128 points by semenko 4y ago

I just stumbled upon NumWorks and was excited to see some competition for TI's calculator monopoly [1]. It looks like NumWorks is open source (including the hardware) [2] and supports Python and Rust! [3] [1] https://gen.medium.com/big-calculator-how-texas-instruments-monopolized-math-class-67ee165045dc https://gen.medium.com/big-calculator-how-texas-instruments-... [2] https://www.numworks.com/resources/engineering/ https://www.numworks.com/resources/engineering/ [3] https://github.com/numworks/epsilon-sample-app-rust https://github.com/numworks/epsilon-sample-app-rust

jpbadan 4y ago
Unfortunately It seems it's not open source anymore https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JSxBn_gxWXA https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JSxBn_gxWXA
- belthesar 4y ago
  That's a gross oversimplification. From the video the poster provided: * V16 of the Epsilon OS by Numworks removed the ability to install custom operating systems to the device in response to pressure from the Dutch education department, who had adopted the calculator as the standard for their education system. This was due to information provided by a different Youtuber accusing the platform of being used for cheating, and then provided modified versions of the OS that enabled cheating support by working around the Exam Mode functions. A fair and true statement would be that the NumWorks calculator was originally marketed as open hardware, and that functionality was removed (similar to Sony removing OtherOS from PS3's).
  - josephcsible 4y ago
    It's tivoized hardware running closed-but-visible-source software. It's not an oversimplification at all to say it's not open source.

josephcsible 4y ago

NumWorks is not open source. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28344087 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28344087

nsajko 4y ago

Mods, please correct the editorialized and wrong title. NumWorks isn't open source and never was. What it is is source-available, because the source is available. Or at least it still was available the last time I looked at it. NumWorks used to be fun because it had an unlocked bootloader, allowing users to download their own software onto the calculator. But then they did a face-heel turn. To NumWorks' credit, I'm sure the UI is still miles ahead of Texas Instruments calculators. EDIT: it seems NumWorks now allows users to download "apps" onto their devices. This is nice, of course, but still a far cry from the unlocked bootloader situation.

rpdillon 4y ago
I've engaged in debates on HN about the definition of "open source" in the past, so there might be some disagreement about the meaning of the title. I've settled on using "OSI open source" to avoid this, since those discussions are uniformly tiring and unproductive. That said, I agree with parent: the repo specifically has a section regarding copyright and it simply says that all rights are reserved[0]. This is proprietary software, disallowing copying, distribution, and derivative works. It's weird, since even cloning the repo appears to be a violation of their stated terms, though they supply instructions for building the software yourself that of course requires copying the code to your machine first[1]. Copyright is weird. [0]: https://github.com/numworks/epsilon#copyright https://github.com/numworks/epsilon#copyright [1]: https://www.numworks.com/resources/engineering/software/build/ https://www.numworks.com/resources/engineering/software/buil... Edit: Figured it out. License was changed 13 months ago: https://github.com/numworks/epsilon/commit/b1ea81f067f5fef3fcf03606638c394e36f88096 https://github.com/numworks/epsilon/commit/b1ea81f067f5fef3f...
- gpm 4y ago
  Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer and you should not rely on this as legal advice. Even if I'm right, it would be a stupid and expensive lawsuit. I think that under US law you can legally clone it from github [1] and build/run it [2] without a license. [1] GitHub has a valid license to create copies by virtue of their TOS. You aren't creating a copy, github is, and they are then lawfully transferring it to you. [2] This is explicitly called out as something you can legally do without a license in copyright law. "All rights reserved" is just the lack of a license and doesn't prevent you from doing things that weren't illegal in the first place.: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/117 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/117

CrazedGeek 4y ago

There’s a forked version of the OS called Omega that’s really nice: https://github.com/Omega-Numworks/Omega https://github.com/Omega-Numworks/Omega And apparently a jailbreak for Epsilon 16+: https://phi.getomega.dev/ https://phi.getomega.dev/

homarp 4y ago
and a symbolic algebra system for Omega, https://www-fourier.univ-grenoble-alpes.fr/~parisse/numworks/khicasnw.html https://www-fourier.univ-grenoble-alpes.fr/~parisse/numworks... (it's a port/adaptation of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xcas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xcas )
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
gbraad 4y ago
upsilon is were the development continued

jedisct1 4y ago

It doesn't support Rust at all. There's just a GitHub repository with a toy example in Rust, that uses nothing but direct unsafe calls to five C functions. But Python, yeah, definitely. That's the beauty of this calculator.

nsajko 4y ago
> But Python, yeah, definitely. Well, it's a forked MicroPython. It doesn't actually support Python, just something similar to Python.

agumonkey 4y ago

i wish to make a toy version of that on an esp32, with a RPL system on top (of course)

satiric 4y ago

I think the creators do legitimately want to build a truly open source calculator. The problem is getting the calculator registered for exams - the examiners naturally want to make sure that the calculator isn't being used for cheating. And any method to replace the firmware, add custom applications, etc. can and should be viewed as a way to cheat on exams. Personally, I'm hopefully never going to take another standardized exam in my life - I'd like to see a graphing calculator that doesn't attempt to get certified for exams or school use, since this seems to be such a significant hurdle. But I know I'm in the 0.1% of graphing calculator users who don't care about AP/IB/the SAT/whatever.

nsajko 4y ago
> I think the creators do legitimately want to build a truly open source calculator. Somewhat like Google legitimately wants to "do no evil"? Sometimes it is said that deeds, not words is what matters. But in this case even the words are missing, so I don't really get what you're trying to say.
- satiric 4y ago
  My point is that ultimately it was more important for them to make a calculator that students could actually use - which is a perfectly reasonable goal. And it's a shame that that's fundamentally incompatible with FOSS.
  - eternityforest 4y ago
    Seems highly insane that students have to buy a calculator, that can basically never be used outside of school for many people because it's so limited.... Why can't the school just have a pile of them? Then they can be totally FOSS. The teacher hands you one, they know the FW is good, you give it back, and if you want to practice at home, you can buy yourself the unlocked version which would be fully open and have more communications so it could be repurposed. Then the same device can be sold as a smarthome IoT remote like a better Logitech Harmony, or various other random uses, and have more economies of scale. In fact, it could just be a cheap Android device sans GPS, with no front camera(A cheap rear camera is always good for QR setup) and with real buttons and a smaller screen. Lower resolution + transflective display + 30hz + fewer background apps is going to significantly increase battery life. Then people can try out the CAS features on their phone, and use their calculator for whatever they might want, since it's become the obvious choice for IoT stuff.

geophertz 4y ago

These calculators are very popular in France. I know of a lot of teachers who use them for teaching.

bb88 4y ago

I have one. It's great. It's quite an amazing bit of tech. I wish they would split out the market, though, one for the educational market for tests and the like, and one for the professionals with wireless and more open capabilities. I would like for instance to ship images of graphs to use in a web page. Or to use it as a keyboard to type equations and calculations into documents. Or to have it connect to PyPI say to grab programs that can calculate complex equations.... etc.

charles_kaw 4y ago
I have long believed that there is a huge market for some sort of rudimentary TI-style CAS system, with a caveat. Something that works on embedded arm devices, but is screen aware enough to be ported to a desktop. If you include bluetooth in your calculator hardware, you now have an excellent input device for an onscreen CAS - or maybe something more like a screencast. Extend this concept far enough, and we're talking about something like OP is describing - easy to sync and share small programs and tools. Further integration with excel and other tabulated data sources, and you've got a real killer on your hands.
a-dub 4y ago
matlab or octave (oss clone) may be of interest to you. for symbolic math try wolfram alpha, the matlab symbolic math toolbox or one of the symbolic math packages available for python.

solarized 4y ago

Beautiful design. but, another devices in my bag? no thank you. my phones already solve almost anything.

j-james 4y ago
Well, you might be interested to know that they provide an emulator of their calculator for free on mobile (and through the browser). https://www.numworks.com/simulator https://www.numworks.com/simulator

jhallenworld 4y ago

Numworks is interesting, but not really that great. The two things I don't like are: 1. the Android app is a strictly a physical calculator emulator, and does not try to be the best possible calculator for Android. 2. On the real calculator, the user interface is pretty slow- sure, it's responsive, but it's not very efficient. So for example, it comes in last on this benchmark: https://github.com/jhallen/calculator/wiki https://github.com/jhallen/calculator/wiki

nsajko 4y ago
Software isn't the worst thing for UI efficiency on NumWorks: the buttons are very low quality. So not only are many key presses necessary (according to your benchmark), but each key press must be relatively carefully performed to avoid the wrong key being actuated, for example. That said, the NumWorks UI is quite intuitive.

skavi 4y ago

How do the buttons feel?

hirebackenddev 4y ago

wow, this is awesome!

wscott 4y ago

This thing looks a whole lot like the HP Prime[0] calculator. From the icons to select the "applications" (aka modes) and the pop up menus. That said the HP has a color screen and from the looks of it better buttons. Too bad HP didn't care enough about calculators to make the prime live up to its potential. [0]: https://hpcalcs.com/product/hp-prime-graphing-calculator/ https://hpcalcs.com/product/hp-prime-graphing-calculator/

gbraad 4y ago

The NumWorks is now a fauxpensource device. They changed their license months ago after a debacle with their exam mode. Delta/Upsilon firmware are based on the pre-license change firmware. Where does the statement around rust support come from?

josephcsible 4y ago
That's all true, but there's one more key point that makes it even worse than that: the hardware is tivoized.