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I was wondering why docx format would be chosen instead of PDF but they answer it pretty completely here if anyone else is interested: https://www.uspto.gov/pat

I was wondering why docx format would be chosen instead of PDF but they answer it pretty completely here if anyone else is interested: https://www.uspto.gov/patents/docx https://www.uspto.gov/patents/docx

jedberg 4y ago
It looks like most of those translate to "We build our automated systems around DOCX so you get all our features if you use it". But it doesn't really say why they chose to build on docx.
- apocalyptic0n3 4y ago
  > But it doesn't really say why they chose to build on docx. Having worked directly with their teams in the past (although not on this), a lot of their systems seemed to evolve naturally over time based on the needs present. In that industry, a large majority of the documents being passed back and forth are DOCX. So my semi-educated guess is someone built a system to handle some simple intake tasks for DOCX applications because a large majority already were, it evolved over a few years, and when they finally decided to fully automate the process, they decided to build upon what they have which only supported DOCX and it was cheaper/easier to mandate everyone submit in that format than to build a new system or add support for others.
  - jedberg 4y ago
    This makes the most sense.
  - ramoz 4y ago
    I get that you worked with them it seems, but would argue that your hunch is wrong here. Regulatory processes, business systems, and international integration are plagued by PDF OCR complexities. OCR creates systemic issues and an anatomy of complex system architectures. Im sure XML is a typical downstream for parsing anyways. Use DOCX to enhance quality of the overall scope of integrations.
    - apocalyptic0n3 4y ago
      They could just use standardized application forms the way they do for research reports they require (the "ISA ###" forms). Those forms are easily parsable by things like pdftk and don't require any OCR. I don't necessarily disagree with your point (since it makes complete sense), just wanting to point out that they already have a system in place for this using other means (although even there they are moving toward XML instead, likely because of what a pain it is to deal with text that exceeds the area of the input in PDFs)
- meragrin_ 4y ago
  I guess you have little exposure to the industry. My experience is the vast majority already use Word or something else which supports DOCX. I cannot think of another format which practitioners have easy access to and would use. PDF just needs to go away for this process.
  - jedberg 4y ago
    I actually do have a lot of exposure to patents, and I know everyone uses DocX already. I'm just saying that that web page doesn't say why they chose DocX, only why you should use DocX.
    - meragrin_ 4y ago
      Sure it does. I'll give you it does not say why they chose it over other alternatives which I'm thinking is what you are looking for. Are there really any alternatives? The only real alternative I can think of is OpenDocument Format and I don't consider it alternative. As they say on that page, 80% of their users already deal with DOCX so 80+% of them will have to convert to ODF. I can't imagine ODF having any sort of benefit worth requiring most people to convert their documents before sending.
      - nescioquid 4y ago
        To me, the salient question is why is the government officially adopting a proprietary file format? Why is it important to optimize for the trivial convenience of patent applicants? It seems more like rationalization than reason.
        mordero 4y ago
        Isn't docx technically an open file format? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_Open_XML https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_Open_XML
        nescioquid 4y ago
- dataflow 4y ago
  It actually seems like a sane choice to me. PDF is good for rendering, but horrible for parsing. DOCX is a ZIP file with XML data. Maybe ODT or whatever would've been a better choice, I don't know what the format is like. But if you disregard the usual knee-jerk "but it's Microsoft!" reaction, it doesn't seem like a bad choice.
  - jedberg 4y ago
    I never said it was a bad choice, only that they didn't say why they chose it.
    - dataflow 4y ago
      I guess, but you were replying to "I was wondering why docx format would be chosen instead of PDF" seemingly unconvinced, so I assumed you thought PDF would've made more sense.
  - molsongolden 4y ago
    Was just about to post this. Unzipping DOCX and parsing XML is much easier than accurately processing PDF submissions.
    - oneplane 4y ago
      OCR has come a long way, so much that visually interpreting a PDF is about as error-prom as parsing XML output from Microsoft in non-microsoft software.
      - programmarchy 4y ago
        Try extracting tabular data from a PDF! With XML it's trivial, but for PDF you need highly specialized software packages to do this. One of the best, pdfplumber, is largely based [1] on a Master's thesis titled Algorithmic Extraction of Data in Tables in PDF Documents [2]. [1] https://github.com/jsvine/pdfplumber/blob/stable/pdfplumber/table.py#L551 https://github.com/jsvine/pdfplumber/blob/stable/pdfplumber/... [2] https://trepo.tuni.fi/bitstream/handle/123456789/21520/Nurminen.pdf https://trepo.tuni.fi/bitstream/handle/123456789/21520/Nurmi...
- joshstrange 4y ago
  As a few others have mentioned, the parsing alone means DOCX is a huge win over PDF. I had to parse a bunch of PDF data related to COVID and it was always a PITA. Every time they changed their layout even a little bit I had to rewrite parts of my extractor. The worst part? The headers/metadata showed it was all made in Word so they could have exported to DOCX as well as PDF if they wanted to but they only provided PDF.
- bragr 4y ago
  >But it doesn't really say why they chose to build on docx. Is requiring the DOCX format just adding another step in the process for applicants? Actually, it's the opposite. The USPTO conducted a study and found that over 80% of applicants are authoring their applications in DOCX format (through writing tools such as Microsoft Word). Because the files are originally in a DOCX format, uploading the original file eliminates the step for the applicant to convert the document to PDF prior to submission. Instead, the applicant is able to save the step of converting because our system will do that automatically.
  - sidewndr46 4y ago
    Wait, what? So they convert from DOCX to PDF after you upload? But you have to upload DOCX? This sounds like the worst of both worlds.
    - chociej 4y ago
      Not really for their own purposes, no. They do convert to PDF (and TIFF!) for various archiving and display needs.
Noted 4y ago
Nice to see they call out LibreOffice as a usable application as well.
- AdmiralAsshat 4y ago
  INSTEAD of Open Office, no less!
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
hedora 4y ago
They say that 80% of the submissions used to be converted to PDF from word. I'd be interested to know where the other 20% came from.
- NotYourLawyer 4y ago
  I’m guessing google docs is the next most common, and then probably libre office.
  - meragrin_ 4y ago
    My experience is a large distrust of cloud environments. I would expect Pages and Libre/Open Office to be more common than Google Docs.
    - NotYourLawyer 4y ago
      Oh right, I bet Pages is up there. I dunno though—I know lots of patent attorneys who are surprisingly non-technical and probably haven’t given a thought to cloud security issues.
- bonyt 4y ago
  My guess is that printed and scanned documents from word make up a large component of this.
- meragrin_ 4y ago
  There's this one guy I've dealt with. He uses a editor he wrote himself. He'll convert his documents to Pages and then use Pages for any other conversion needed.
  - exikyut 4y ago
    Coool. What unique features does it have / how does it work / what does it look like / what were the real-world factors that contributed to the insanity of deciding to build it? xD
  - 4y ago

jedberg 4y ago

It looks like most of those translate to "We build our automated systems around DOCX so you get all our features if you use it". But it doesn't really say why they chose to build on docx.

apocalyptic0n3 4y ago
> But it doesn't really say why they chose to build on docx. Having worked directly with their teams in the past (although not on this), a lot of their systems seemed to evolve naturally over time based on the needs present. In that industry, a large majority of the documents being passed back and forth are DOCX. So my semi-educated guess is someone built a system to handle some simple intake tasks for DOCX applications because a large majority already were, it evolved over a few years, and when they finally decided to fully automate the process, they decided to build upon what they have which only supported DOCX and it was cheaper/easier to mandate everyone submit in that format than to build a new system or add support for others.
- jedberg 4y ago
  This makes the most sense.
- ramoz 4y ago
  I get that you worked with them it seems, but would argue that your hunch is wrong here. Regulatory processes, business systems, and international integration are plagued by PDF OCR complexities. OCR creates systemic issues and an anatomy of complex system architectures. Im sure XML is a typical downstream for parsing anyways. Use DOCX to enhance quality of the overall scope of integrations.
  - apocalyptic0n3 4y ago
    They could just use standardized application forms the way they do for research reports they require (the "ISA ###" forms). Those forms are easily parsable by things like pdftk and don't require any OCR. I don't necessarily disagree with your point (since it makes complete sense), just wanting to point out that they already have a system in place for this using other means (although even there they are moving toward XML instead, likely because of what a pain it is to deal with text that exceeds the area of the input in PDFs)
meragrin_ 4y ago
I guess you have little exposure to the industry. My experience is the vast majority already use Word or something else which supports DOCX. I cannot think of another format which practitioners have easy access to and would use. PDF just needs to go away for this process.
- jedberg 4y ago
  I actually do have a lot of exposure to patents, and I know everyone uses DocX already. I'm just saying that that web page doesn't say why they chose DocX, only why you should use DocX.
  - meragrin_ 4y ago
    Sure it does. I'll give you it does not say why they chose it over other alternatives which I'm thinking is what you are looking for. Are there really any alternatives? The only real alternative I can think of is OpenDocument Format and I don't consider it alternative. As they say on that page, 80% of their users already deal with DOCX so 80+% of them will have to convert to ODF. I can't imagine ODF having any sort of benefit worth requiring most people to convert their documents before sending.
    - nescioquid 4y ago
      To me, the salient question is why is the government officially adopting a proprietary file format? Why is it important to optimize for the trivial convenience of patent applicants? It seems more like rationalization than reason.
      - mordero 4y ago
        Isn't docx technically an open file format? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_Open_XML https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_Open_XML
        nescioquid 4y ago
dataflow 4y ago
It actually seems like a sane choice to me. PDF is good for rendering, but horrible for parsing. DOCX is a ZIP file with XML data. Maybe ODT or whatever would've been a better choice, I don't know what the format is like. But if you disregard the usual knee-jerk "but it's Microsoft!" reaction, it doesn't seem like a bad choice.
- jedberg 4y ago
  I never said it was a bad choice, only that they didn't say why they chose it.
  - dataflow 4y ago
    I guess, but you were replying to "I was wondering why docx format would be chosen instead of PDF" seemingly unconvinced, so I assumed you thought PDF would've made more sense.
- molsongolden 4y ago
  Was just about to post this. Unzipping DOCX and parsing XML is much easier than accurately processing PDF submissions.
  - oneplane 4y ago
    OCR has come a long way, so much that visually interpreting a PDF is about as error-prom as parsing XML output from Microsoft in non-microsoft software.
    - programmarchy 4y ago
      Try extracting tabular data from a PDF! With XML it's trivial, but for PDF you need highly specialized software packages to do this. One of the best, pdfplumber, is largely based [1] on a Master's thesis titled Algorithmic Extraction of Data in Tables in PDF Documents [2]. [1] https://github.com/jsvine/pdfplumber/blob/stable/pdfplumber/table.py#L551 https://github.com/jsvine/pdfplumber/blob/stable/pdfplumber/... [2] https://trepo.tuni.fi/bitstream/handle/123456789/21520/Nurminen.pdf https://trepo.tuni.fi/bitstream/handle/123456789/21520/Nurmi...
joshstrange 4y ago
As a few others have mentioned, the parsing alone means DOCX is a huge win over PDF. I had to parse a bunch of PDF data related to COVID and it was always a PITA. Every time they changed their layout even a little bit I had to rewrite parts of my extractor. The worst part? The headers/metadata showed it was all made in Word so they could have exported to DOCX as well as PDF if they wanted to but they only provided PDF.
bragr 4y ago
>But it doesn't really say why they chose to build on docx. Is requiring the DOCX format just adding another step in the process for applicants? Actually, it's the opposite. The USPTO conducted a study and found that over 80% of applicants are authoring their applications in DOCX format (through writing tools such as Microsoft Word). Because the files are originally in a DOCX format, uploading the original file eliminates the step for the applicant to convert the document to PDF prior to submission. Instead, the applicant is able to save the step of converting because our system will do that automatically.
- sidewndr46 4y ago
  Wait, what? So they convert from DOCX to PDF after you upload? But you have to upload DOCX? This sounds like the worst of both worlds.
  - chociej 4y ago
    Not really for their own purposes, no. They do convert to PDF (and TIFF!) for various archiving and display needs.

Noted 4y ago

Nice to see they call out LibreOffice as a usable application as well.

AdmiralAsshat 4y ago
INSTEAD of Open Office, no less!

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

hedora 4y ago

They say that 80% of the submissions used to be converted to PDF from word. I'd be interested to know where the other 20% came from.

NotYourLawyer 4y ago
I’m guessing google docs is the next most common, and then probably libre office.
- meragrin_ 4y ago
  My experience is a large distrust of cloud environments. I would expect Pages and Libre/Open Office to be more common than Google Docs.
  - NotYourLawyer 4y ago
    Oh right, I bet Pages is up there. I dunno though—I know lots of patent attorneys who are surprisingly non-technical and probably haven’t given a thought to cloud security issues.
bonyt 4y ago
My guess is that printed and scanned documents from word make up a large component of this.
meragrin_ 4y ago
There's this one guy I've dealt with. He uses a editor he wrote himself. He'll convert his documents to Pages and then use Pages for any other conversion needed.
- exikyut 4y ago
  Coool. What unique features does it have / how does it work / what does it look like / what were the real-world factors that contributed to the insanity of deciding to build it? xD
- 4y ago