4 ms·

Sure, but that methane + CO2 has been in a steady cycle (cow -> air -> grass -> cow) and fairly constant quantity (before mass agriculture there were e.g. numer

by tomp 4y ago

Sure, but that methane + CO2 has been in a steady cycle (cow -> air -> grass -> cow) and fairly constant quantity (before mass agriculture there were e.g. numerous bisons in the US), so they’re not contributing to “global warming” (i.e. a rise in temperature). All of that warming is caused by fossil fuels.

virgildotcodes 4y ago
- tomp 4y ago
  My final thoughts are, what my original comment (2-3 comments up the chain) was. Your “solution” doesn’t solve anything, but merely delays the inevitable. There is only one solution to global warming, which is stopping fossil fuels. Deleting all cows is not a solution, therefore it is promoted simply as a distraction, and a way to let people hate each other, via “sin taxes” (very similar to “paper straws” drive a few years back, which also had a zero-to-negative effect on pollution and global warming)
  - rafaelero 4y ago
  - virgildotcodes 4y ago
    I agree that we need to eliminate fossil fuels. I also didn't state that eliminating animal agriculture was the singular solution to climate change. All I was pointing out was that it doesn't seem correct to say that cattle do not contribute to climate change, as you seemed to be saying.
    - tomp 4y ago
      No, it's correct to say that cattle don't contribute to climate change, but clearly I haven't managed to explain it properly. Let's try with an analogy. You have a lake, that has an inflow (river) and an outflow (river and/or solar evaporation). They are in equilibrium, and the lake has existed for thousands of years, never overflowing, never drying out. Then you build a factory/farm that takes some water out of the lake. If the amount of water is sufficiently small, the ecosystem can adapt (e.g. less outflow and/or evaporation). But if the amount of water you take out is over that "adaptable" threshold, then the lake WILL eventually dry out. Blaming the outflowing river is non-sensical; it didn't contribute anything to the drying of the lake, the entire fault lies with the factory. Note that the amount of water the factory takes is irrelevant (as long as it's over the "adaptable" threshold); the lake will dry regardless, the amount only influences when, not if. river->natural CO2 + methane cycle, lake->climate, factory->fossil fuels, less outflow->plants growing more because of extra CO2, lake drying->climate change (could work the other way as well, lake overflowing...)
- sampo 4y ago
  > Am I misunderstanding something? If I eat food at a rate of 2 kg per day, after 10 days I will not be 20 kg heavier. If I shovel sand into a box at a rate of 2 kg per day, after 10 days the box will be 20 kg heavier.
  - virgildotcodes 4y ago
    If you have an hourglass that allows sand to flow through it out into a sandbox at a rate of 1kg per day, yet you actively shovel 2kg per day of sand into it, you are going to be accumulating 1kg of sand per day in your hourglass. Regardless of the fact that the sand will eventually all flow back out into the sandbox over a long enough timeline.
- towaway15463 4y ago
  If we’re going to eliminate cows because they produce methane then why not eliminate all other biological sources of methane?
  - virgildotcodes 4y ago
    Is this like, if we're going to eliminate fossil fuels because they produce CO2, why not eliminate all other sources of CO2 (like people)?
wheelie_boy 4y ago
This is a very interesting discussion, and I feel like I'm learning a lot. One thing I figured was worth checking was how many bison there were pre-industrialization, and how many cows there are now. Some quick googling seems to say: ~60,000,000 Bison in North America in 1600 ~1,000,967,000 Livestock Cattle worldwide in 2021 https://allaboutbison.com/bison-in-history/bison-timeline/ https://allaboutbison.com/bison-in-history/bison-timeline/ https://beef2live.com/story-world-cattle-inventory-1960-2014-130-111523 https://beef2live.com/story-world-cattle-inventory-1960-2014...
- sampo 4y ago
  > ~60,000,000 Bison in North America in 1600 94,400,000 cattle and calves in USA in 2017. https://www.aphis.usda.gov/animal_health/nahms/downloads/Demographics2017.pdf https://www.aphis.usda.gov/animal_health/nahms/downloads/Dem...
  - wheelie_boy 4y ago
    I think the overall question is whether the decrease in bison is offset by the increase in cattle. Bison primarily decreased in NA, but cattle increased worldwide.

by tomp 4y ago

virgildotcodes 4y ago

tomp 4y ago
My final thoughts are, what my original comment (2-3 comments up the chain) was. Your “solution” doesn’t solve anything, but merely delays the inevitable. There is only one solution to global warming, which is stopping fossil fuels. Deleting all cows is not a solution, therefore it is promoted simply as a distraction, and a way to let people hate each other, via “sin taxes” (very similar to “paper straws” drive a few years back, which also had a zero-to-negative effect on pollution and global warming)
- rafaelero 4y ago
- virgildotcodes 4y ago
  I agree that we need to eliminate fossil fuels. I also didn't state that eliminating animal agriculture was the singular solution to climate change. All I was pointing out was that it doesn't seem correct to say that cattle do not contribute to climate change, as you seemed to be saying.
  - tomp 4y ago
    No, it's correct to say that cattle don't contribute to climate change, but clearly I haven't managed to explain it properly. Let's try with an analogy. You have a lake, that has an inflow (river) and an outflow (river and/or solar evaporation). They are in equilibrium, and the lake has existed for thousands of years, never overflowing, never drying out. Then you build a factory/farm that takes some water out of the lake. If the amount of water is sufficiently small, the ecosystem can adapt (e.g. less outflow and/or evaporation). But if the amount of water you take out is over that "adaptable" threshold, then the lake WILL eventually dry out. Blaming the outflowing river is non-sensical; it didn't contribute anything to the drying of the lake, the entire fault lies with the factory. Note that the amount of water the factory takes is irrelevant (as long as it's over the "adaptable" threshold); the lake will dry regardless, the amount only influences when, not if. river->natural CO2 + methane cycle, lake->climate, factory->fossil fuels, less outflow->plants growing more because of extra CO2, lake drying->climate change (could work the other way as well, lake overflowing...)
sampo 4y ago
> Am I misunderstanding something? If I eat food at a rate of 2 kg per day, after 10 days I will not be 20 kg heavier. If I shovel sand into a box at a rate of 2 kg per day, after 10 days the box will be 20 kg heavier.
- virgildotcodes 4y ago
  If you have an hourglass that allows sand to flow through it out into a sandbox at a rate of 1kg per day, yet you actively shovel 2kg per day of sand into it, you are going to be accumulating 1kg of sand per day in your hourglass. Regardless of the fact that the sand will eventually all flow back out into the sandbox over a long enough timeline.
towaway15463 4y ago
If we’re going to eliminate cows because they produce methane then why not eliminate all other biological sources of methane?
- virgildotcodes 4y ago
  Is this like, if we're going to eliminate fossil fuels because they produce CO2, why not eliminate all other sources of CO2 (like people)?

wheelie_boy 4y ago

This is a very interesting discussion, and I feel like I'm learning a lot. One thing I figured was worth checking was how many bison there were pre-industrialization, and how many cows there are now. Some quick googling seems to say: ~60,000,000 Bison in North America in 1600 ~1,000,967,000 Livestock Cattle worldwide in 2021 https://allaboutbison.com/bison-in-history/bison-timeline/ https://allaboutbison.com/bison-in-history/bison-timeline/ https://beef2live.com/story-world-cattle-inventory-1960-2014-130-111523 https://beef2live.com/story-world-cattle-inventory-1960-2014...

sampo 4y ago
> ~60,000,000 Bison in North America in 1600 94,400,000 cattle and calves in USA in 2017. https://www.aphis.usda.gov/animal_health/nahms/downloads/Demographics2017.pdf https://www.aphis.usda.gov/animal_health/nahms/downloads/Dem...
- wheelie_boy 4y ago
  I think the overall question is whether the decrease in bison is offset by the increase in cattle. Bison primarily decreased in NA, but cattle increased worldwide.