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I worry that the transition from ICE to EV will exacerbate economic disparities because of the cashflow challenges of battery replacement. Today you can go out
by nullc 4y ago
I worry that the transition from ICE to EV will exacerbate economic disparities because of the cashflow challenges of battery replacement.
Today you can go out and buy a used ICE car for a fraction of a new price and then operate it with almost all further operating and maintaince costs being incremental and small unless you get into an accident or have a (quite rare) major drive-train failure, which effectively total the used car since they cost more to fix than getting another similar used car.
By comparison the EV will need its batteries replaced every N years at a substantial all-at-once price, which is currently at a scale of 2x what a perfectly usable ICE used car costs.
The EV's TCO still is better or competitive with the ICE car because the extra cost of battery replacement is offset by reduced fuel costs and maintenance costs. But this is a reduction of many pay-as-you-go incremental costs and a replacement with a big upfront cost, and so it imposes a significant cashflow burden.
To put concrete figures, my spouse bought a used Nissan Leaf a number of years ago for a price a bit higher than a comparable classed used ICE car would cost. At the time, we priced out the replacement battery in order to account for the future expense we could expect and IIRC were quoted $8k by Nissan. A number of years pass and the battery degrades, eventually getting down to a range of only ~45 miles which was becoming unusable for us. We contact Nissan about a replacement and are informed that the price was then $12k, and that's still with the original 24kwh battery type, not newer technology. 12k would buy you _two_ perfectly usable used ICE cars from a used car dealer, maybe three in private party transactions. We were able to find a mechanic that was able to install a 40KWh battery from a more recent generation all in for about the $8k we were anticipating, so we were ultimately happy with the outcome.
But when I think back to prior points in my life when I wasn't wealthy, these kinds of cashflow hits would have been devastating. Probably the biggest day to day difference between being poor or not is having access to the cash flow required to take on large infrequent expenses.
So I worry that this transition to EV will force many more less wealthy people into predatory financing. Access to transportation is key to economic mobility, since without it people are limited to whatever jobs are accessible from where they live and are limited in where they live accessible to where they work. Today people of limited means can own a car outright, and it's less clear to me that this is true in a EV world given today's battery economics.
I've seen a lot of discussion and debate over the total cost of EV's putting them out of reach of the less wealthy, and from my own analysis I agree that shouldn't be a major issue now. But I haven't seen any discussion about the cashflow impacts, which I think are very important too.
There seems to be a lot of hope that battery economics will continue to improve dramatically and I share it. But it's already improved dramatically and after some amount those improvements should diminish. I find it hard to accept that we should be setting public policy based on conjectural improvements that are far from guaranteed even in the sense of "if we adopt it the prices will drop".
- freedude 4y ago"EV will need its batteries replaced every N years at a substantial all-at-once price" You can count on replacing them in 8-10 years. It is currently a false economy based upon a false narrative to buy an electric car. At $6.00/gal you can buy about 1333 gallons of fuel which translates into about 3 years of fuel purchases. It might make economic sense if the government stops increasing the price of EV by subsidizing them. At $3.00/gal it doesn't make sense because of the added cost of an EV. It is price prohibitive for the majority of voting Americans.
- deleted 4y ago[deleted]
- nullc 4y agoYeah, I left it at N because didn't want to debate the replacement interval: The point I'm making holds just so long as you agree that EVs need battery replacements much more often than ICE need major repairs. I think that's not debatable... and also because my personal experience is driven by the leaf which probably has the worst battery endurance of any of the mass market EVs. EV total cost can be somewhat lower or substantially higher depending on your beliefs about battery lifetimes and your usage levels. There are many factors that go in to battery lifetime so its easy to debate endlessly-- one of the reasons we really wanted to increase the battery size was so that we could usually charge it to only 80% which should substantially improve the battery life. This is in contrast to an ICE where, especially in California or other moderate humidity low rainfall environments, an unused ICE will basically last forever. Some property I bought had a old 1940s military truck on it that at some point had been changed to 12v, and had not been driven since ~1990. We got it running fine with two afternoons of tinkering and a visit to the auto parts store, after replacing some cables and rubber parts that had degraded. And even with regular commuter use its totally realistic to get decades of use out of an ICE with nothing but intermittent couple hundred dollar maintenance expenses here and there, O2 sensors, pumps, etc.
- freedude 4y agoExactly. Even in the midwest where humidity, salt and freezing temps are significant issues the 1940s tech can still work after much disuse if care is taken to get it running properly. Check out youtube there are plenty of "Will it run" videos highlighting this design feature. Now put a current technology battery in a similar situation and by comparison it is depressing. What we stand to lose is important to retain. I would love to see EV work well at replacing ICE. It is not today's reality for me or many others in my demographic (outside of the suburban coastal metro areas). Perhaps when Aluminum, Sulfur, Salt batteries are available that will change. We'll see how that new tech develops.