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Next make the fees non-extortionate. My kid's Irish passport costs €25 to renew. Her US passport is €130. We wouldn't even bother with the US one except that

Next make the fees non-extortionate. My kid's Irish passport costs €25 to renew. Her US passport is €130. We wouldn't even bother with the US one except that it's illegal for her to enter the US on anything but a US passport. If we showed up with her Consular Report of Birth Abroad (which proves her US citizenship) could they legally refuse her entry to the US? I don't know. But €130 to enter a country of which you're a citizen is annoying.

dataflow 4y ago
> illegal for her to enter the US on anything but a US passport From what I recall reading on the internet (don't blame me if it's wrong), it's "illegal" but there's no actual penalty on the books. Apparently they scold you and give you a hard time, but let you pass through, since citizens are required to be allowed entry. (And I mean, consider what if you lost your passport during your trip?) I don't personally know anyone who's actually tried this so I have no idea how true it is in reality.
- orangepurple 4y ago
  How would you board your aircraft without a valid travel document? The air carriers won't let you.
  - dataflow 4y ago
    > How would you board your aircraft without a valid travel document? You lose your passport after boarding, or bring a certificate of naturalization, birth certificate, etc. that proves your citizenship. Or in the parent's case, try with the "Consular Report of Birth Abroad". I have no idea if the US accepts that, but it seems to me it should, since it proves citizenship which implies that person can't be denied entry.
    - pessimizer 4y ago
      > You lose your passport after boarding The problem being discussed is the price of US passports, not trying to figure out how to enter the US without a passport that you've paid for.
      - dataflow 4y ago
        Yes, hence the rest of that comment. Those 6 words were just giving yet another example for the general case, which they would need to have a process for handling.
  - notch656a 4y ago
    There are several modes of transport besides commercial aircraft that reach the border of the US. Wouldn't surprise me if "look at me I'm white and speak with American south accent" might have gotten a charismatic enough individual on a plane to the US at some point after not having a passport for whatever reason, on some unscrupulous airline. Edit: per below, unscrupulous was a poor word choice. I should have used a whatever word means "imposing low level of scrutiny."
    - dataflow 4y ago
      > unscrupulous airline. I'm unsure about this, but from what I've gathered, airlines can bring people to the border without verifying travel documents. The only caveat is they have to be willing to transport that person back if they're not admitted. And IIRC this can happen even if that person has a visa etc., since not every valid entry document guarantees admission, so it's not like carriers would know the admission result prior to the passenger's boarding anyway. Assuming the above is correct, what this implies to me is that—if an airline was willing to (say) take a deposit or something from a passenger to cover their cost of return, or if they were willing to (for whatever reason) foot the bill themselves—then they could totally let a passenger without valid documentation on board. The only thing that stands in their way of doing this would be their internal corporate policies, really. Unless there's an actual law implying otherwise that I'm unaware of, which is possible.
  - CalRobert 4y ago
    You could board with your other passport (this is for a dual citizen) - though in that case you'd need to have an ESTA, which is annoying.
- mellavora 4y ago
  > it's "illegal" but there's no actual penalty on the books. Actually, there is. They can deny you entry, which means you get put on the next flight back. Not sure if that qualifies as "penalty" in you mind or not, but if we start getting pendantic, "illegal" is not always "criminal", i.e. does not universally imply crime.
  - dataflow 4y ago
    > They can deny you entry (a) They can't do that if you're a citizen; you have a right to enter regardless of whether you have a passport. Heck, there might not even be a place to return you to. (b) That wouldn't be a "penalty" in the law regardless (and this has nothing to do with criminal vs. civil vs. "illegal" vs. whatever). That is, if you do prove your citizenship somehow, they cannot turn you back to penalize you for not having a passport—period. The question is whether you can prove your identity (and thus citizenship) without a passport. There are lots of ways to do this, and it seems [1] that "A Certification of Report of Birth, issued to U.S. citizens who were born outside the U.S." is sufficient to prove citizenship in other cases, so it seems plausible that that's sufficient for entering the country too. (I wouldn't be surprised if even a State ID would be sufficient for them to look up your citizenship info in practice, since they cannot deny you entry if they discover you're a citizen.) [1] https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/42/435.407 https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/42/435.407 (note that this section is NOT specifically for entering the US; I'm just providing it as an example of documents that adequately establish citizenship in other cases)
    - 8note 4y ago
      (a) happens regulay. Moreso to people with brown skin - theyll deport you to wherever and call it a day
      - dataflow 4y ago
        Citation needed. I highly doubt they do that "regularly" after they've witnessed evidence of citizenship other than a passport.
refurb 4y ago
I mean it’s $130 but it lasts for 5 years - 10 if you’re an adult. That’s $26 per year or $2/month.
- Dracophoenix 4y ago
  It's a legitimate question. What exactly makes a US passport more expensive? The cost of labor, shipping, and manufacture isn't 4.5x here than that of Ireland. Even If the a US passport is less than a cup of coffee a month, that doesn't make the cost justified.
  - returningfory2 4y ago
    This is a children's passport; an adult Irish passport is basically the same price as an adult US passport. Given my experience growing up in Ireland, I would guess that the Irish government is subsidizing passports for children.
    - CalRobert 4y ago
      good point - adult passport book is €75, card (valid in Europe) is €35 https://passportonline.dfa.ie/Apply/Passport https://passportonline.dfa.ie/Apply/Passport
  - diebeforei485 4y ago
    Other countries see passports as a normal thing to have - a second identity document to keep at home in case your wallet is stolen, etc, and so charge a reasonable price for it. I think the US government might see it as a thing that wealthier people use for travel abroad, and so feel justified in charging more for it.
  - refurb 4y ago
    I assume Ireland subsidizes theirs? You’re paying for all the thousands of State Department Employees, the IT, the passport book itself, etc. It wouldn’t surprise me all in it costs that much.
xxpor 4y ago
If she's under 16, you don't need a passport (or equivalent), if entering by land or sea: "The Western Hemisphere Travel Initiative requires U.S. citizens, age 16 and older, to present a valid, acceptable travel document, such as a passport, a U.S. passport card, a trusted traveler card (NEXUS, SENTRI, Global Entry or FAST/EXPRESS), a Permanent Resident Card or an enhanced driver’s license that denotes both identity and citizenship when entering the U.S. by land or sea. U.S. citizens under age 16 may present a birth certificate or alternative proof of citizenship when entering by land or sea. All travelers must have a passport book for international air travel." https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/document/guides/A5en.pdf https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/document/guides/A5...
- cbg0 4y ago
  I doubt OP or many others are coming in by boat to the US from Europe these days.
  - xxpor 4y ago
    When's the next QE2 journey? ;)
- lioeters 4y ago
  Upvoted for thinking outside the box. Europe to US by sea.. Doesn't it take like a month? Edit: They can go by transatlantic cruise or a cargo ship, which takes about two weeks.
throwaway894345 4y ago
$13/year doesn’t seem outrageous. Anyway, it’s either funded by fee or by taxes; I’m not sure I care a lot about how I pay. Parenthetically, I also wonder if the €130 feels steeper because you’re used to a more favorable Euro:Dollar conversion rate (obviously this won’t account for the full cost difference between US and Irish passports)?
- woodruffw 4y ago
  As a nit: US minor passports last 5 years, so it's around $26/year.
- mxuribe 4y ago
  @throwaway894345 Oh wow, i guess i was brainwashed a little from another article i read yesterday that was a totally separate topic...But when i quickly glanced at your note about $13/year...my brain immediately filled in the blanks with the following marketing: Hey, for the low annual subscription cost of $13/year, you too can travel the world! Dont' just order a one-and-done passport. Order your U.S. travel subscription today, and save! U.S. State department operators are standing by to take your order! And if you order in the next 24 hours, we'll add all of your personal data to our convenience databases (managed by the CIA and NSA), and in the future as you comitt crimes, the data from these databases can be used to automatically auto-fill those pesky law enforcement forms! lol :-D (Sorry, i know that's not what you meant your comment to convey.)
- CalRobert 4y ago
  I suppose it's more that it's closer to €55 a trip - and the conversion rate is a small part of it, really. Even saying "passports are €130 but you can enter with proof of citizenship" would be better - it just seems bizarre to say "any citizen must be able to enter the US" and "but you MUST have a passport" and then "but not really, though we'll be super annoyed with you" as a policy.
  - throwaway894345 4y ago
    > I suppose it's more that it's closer to €55 a trip - and the conversion rate is a small part of it, really. If you look at it in terms of per trip, and you're only planning on traveling twice for the duration of the passport's validity, then yes. Even still, $55 is a <5% increase on the cost of a cross-Atlantic trip. Maybe I'm just jaded by a dysfunctional political system such that this seems like a relatively small inconvenience to me (as far as government dealings go). :) > Even saying "passports are €130 but you can enter with proof of citizenship" would be better - it just seems bizarre to say "any citizen must be able to enter the US" and "but you MUST have a passport" and then "but not really, though we'll be super annoyed with you" as a policy. This seems unrelated to my comment (I'm certainly not saying what you suggest in this quote). Did you mean to reply to https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32609309 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32609309?
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

dataflow 4y ago

> illegal for her to enter the US on anything but a US passport From what I recall reading on the internet (don't blame me if it's wrong), it's "illegal" but there's no actual penalty on the books. Apparently they scold you and give you a hard time, but let you pass through, since citizens are required to be allowed entry. (And I mean, consider what if you lost your passport during your trip?) I don't personally know anyone who's actually tried this so I have no idea how true it is in reality.

orangepurple 4y ago
How would you board your aircraft without a valid travel document? The air carriers won't let you.
- dataflow 4y ago
  > How would you board your aircraft without a valid travel document? You lose your passport after boarding, or bring a certificate of naturalization, birth certificate, etc. that proves your citizenship. Or in the parent's case, try with the "Consular Report of Birth Abroad". I have no idea if the US accepts that, but it seems to me it should, since it proves citizenship which implies that person can't be denied entry.
  - pessimizer 4y ago
    > You lose your passport after boarding The problem being discussed is the price of US passports, not trying to figure out how to enter the US without a passport that you've paid for.
    - dataflow 4y ago
      Yes, hence the rest of that comment. Those 6 words were just giving yet another example for the general case, which they would need to have a process for handling.
- notch656a 4y ago
  There are several modes of transport besides commercial aircraft that reach the border of the US. Wouldn't surprise me if "look at me I'm white and speak with American south accent" might have gotten a charismatic enough individual on a plane to the US at some point after not having a passport for whatever reason, on some unscrupulous airline. Edit: per below, unscrupulous was a poor word choice. I should have used a whatever word means "imposing low level of scrutiny."
  - dataflow 4y ago
    > unscrupulous airline. I'm unsure about this, but from what I've gathered, airlines can bring people to the border without verifying travel documents. The only caveat is they have to be willing to transport that person back if they're not admitted. And IIRC this can happen even if that person has a visa etc., since not every valid entry document guarantees admission, so it's not like carriers would know the admission result prior to the passenger's boarding anyway. Assuming the above is correct, what this implies to me is that—if an airline was willing to (say) take a deposit or something from a passenger to cover their cost of return, or if they were willing to (for whatever reason) foot the bill themselves—then they could totally let a passenger without valid documentation on board. The only thing that stands in their way of doing this would be their internal corporate policies, really. Unless there's an actual law implying otherwise that I'm unaware of, which is possible.
- CalRobert 4y ago
  You could board with your other passport (this is for a dual citizen) - though in that case you'd need to have an ESTA, which is annoying.
mellavora 4y ago
> it's "illegal" but there's no actual penalty on the books. Actually, there is. They can deny you entry, which means you get put on the next flight back. Not sure if that qualifies as "penalty" in you mind or not, but if we start getting pendantic, "illegal" is not always "criminal", i.e. does not universally imply crime.
- dataflow 4y ago
  > They can deny you entry (a) They can't do that if you're a citizen; you have a right to enter regardless of whether you have a passport. Heck, there might not even be a place to return you to. (b) That wouldn't be a "penalty" in the law regardless (and this has nothing to do with criminal vs. civil vs. "illegal" vs. whatever). That is, if you do prove your citizenship somehow, they cannot turn you back to penalize you for not having a passport—period. The question is whether you can prove your identity (and thus citizenship) without a passport. There are lots of ways to do this, and it seems [1] that "A Certification of Report of Birth, issued to U.S. citizens who were born outside the U.S." is sufficient to prove citizenship in other cases, so it seems plausible that that's sufficient for entering the country too. (I wouldn't be surprised if even a State ID would be sufficient for them to look up your citizenship info in practice, since they cannot deny you entry if they discover you're a citizen.) [1] https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/42/435.407 https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/42/435.407 (note that this section is NOT specifically for entering the US; I'm just providing it as an example of documents that adequately establish citizenship in other cases)
  - 8note 4y ago
    (a) happens regulay. Moreso to people with brown skin - theyll deport you to wherever and call it a day
    - dataflow 4y ago
      Citation needed. I highly doubt they do that "regularly" after they've witnessed evidence of citizenship other than a passport.

refurb 4y ago

I mean it’s $130 but it lasts for 5 years - 10 if you’re an adult. That’s $26 per year or $2/month.

Dracophoenix 4y ago
It's a legitimate question. What exactly makes a US passport more expensive? The cost of labor, shipping, and manufacture isn't 4.5x here than that of Ireland. Even If the a US passport is less than a cup of coffee a month, that doesn't make the cost justified.
- returningfory2 4y ago
  This is a children's passport; an adult Irish passport is basically the same price as an adult US passport. Given my experience growing up in Ireland, I would guess that the Irish government is subsidizing passports for children.
  - CalRobert 4y ago
    good point - adult passport book is €75, card (valid in Europe) is €35 https://passportonline.dfa.ie/Apply/Passport https://passportonline.dfa.ie/Apply/Passport
- diebeforei485 4y ago
  Other countries see passports as a normal thing to have - a second identity document to keep at home in case your wallet is stolen, etc, and so charge a reasonable price for it. I think the US government might see it as a thing that wealthier people use for travel abroad, and so feel justified in charging more for it.
- refurb 4y ago
  I assume Ireland subsidizes theirs? You’re paying for all the thousands of State Department Employees, the IT, the passport book itself, etc. It wouldn’t surprise me all in it costs that much.

xxpor 4y ago

If she's under 16, you don't need a passport (or equivalent), if entering by land or sea: "The Western Hemisphere Travel Initiative requires U.S. citizens, age 16 and older, to present a valid, acceptable travel document, such as a passport, a U.S. passport card, a trusted traveler card (NEXUS, SENTRI, Global Entry or FAST/EXPRESS), a Permanent Resident Card or an enhanced driver’s license that denotes both identity and citizenship when entering the U.S. by land or sea. U.S. citizens under age 16 may present a birth certificate or alternative proof of citizenship when entering by land or sea. All travelers must have a passport book for international air travel." https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/document/guides/A5en.pdf https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/document/guides/A5...

cbg0 4y ago
I doubt OP or many others are coming in by boat to the US from Europe these days.
- xxpor 4y ago
  When's the next QE2 journey? ;)
lioeters 4y ago
Upvoted for thinking outside the box. Europe to US by sea.. Doesn't it take like a month? Edit: They can go by transatlantic cruise or a cargo ship, which takes about two weeks.

throwaway894345 4y ago

$13/year doesn’t seem outrageous. Anyway, it’s either funded by fee or by taxes; I’m not sure I care a lot about how I pay. Parenthetically, I also wonder if the €130 feels steeper because you’re used to a more favorable Euro:Dollar conversion rate (obviously this won’t account for the full cost difference between US and Irish passports)?

woodruffw 4y ago
As a nit: US minor passports last 5 years, so it's around $26/year.
mxuribe 4y ago
@throwaway894345 Oh wow, i guess i was brainwashed a little from another article i read yesterday that was a totally separate topic...But when i quickly glanced at your note about $13/year...my brain immediately filled in the blanks with the following marketing: Hey, for the low annual subscription cost of $13/year, you too can travel the world! Dont' just order a one-and-done passport. Order your U.S. travel subscription today, and save! U.S. State department operators are standing by to take your order! And if you order in the next 24 hours, we'll add all of your personal data to our convenience databases (managed by the CIA and NSA), and in the future as you comitt crimes, the data from these databases can be used to automatically auto-fill those pesky law enforcement forms! lol :-D (Sorry, i know that's not what you meant your comment to convey.)
CalRobert 4y ago
I suppose it's more that it's closer to €55 a trip - and the conversion rate is a small part of it, really. Even saying "passports are €130 but you can enter with proof of citizenship" would be better - it just seems bizarre to say "any citizen must be able to enter the US" and "but you MUST have a passport" and then "but not really, though we'll be super annoyed with you" as a policy.
- throwaway894345 4y ago
  > I suppose it's more that it's closer to €55 a trip - and the conversion rate is a small part of it, really. If you look at it in terms of per trip, and you're only planning on traveling twice for the duration of the passport's validity, then yes. Even still, $55 is a <5% increase on the cost of a cross-Atlantic trip. Maybe I'm just jaded by a dysfunctional political system such that this seems like a relatively small inconvenience to me (as far as government dealings go). :) > Even saying "passports are €130 but you can enter with proof of citizenship" would be better - it just seems bizarre to say "any citizen must be able to enter the US" and "but you MUST have a passport" and then "but not really, though we'll be super annoyed with you" as a policy. This seems unrelated to my comment (I'm certainly not saying what you suggest in this quote). Did you mean to reply to https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32609309 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32609309?

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]