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It always seems that Bitcoin half-solves one problem and creates three more. Accepting Bitcoin/Ethereum doesn't make sense unless it's a reliable store of value

It always seems that Bitcoin half-solves one problem and creates three more. Accepting Bitcoin/Ethereum doesn't make sense unless it's a reliable store of value (which is the opposite of the investment opportunity that seems to drive most of the interest in crypto today). And irreversible transactions sound good until it's your stolen bitcoin used to pay Hetzner...

latchkey 4y ago
Take a loan out against your bitcoin. Use that loan to pay for things. Pay off the loan. BTC becomes a reliable store of value as you're no longer concerned with the daily price changes, only your collateralization ratio.
anonporridge 4y ago
And reversible transactions sounds good until you realize that your participation in the economy can be turned off with a keystroke with no recourse by someone sitting in a cubicle thousands of miles away. Kind of like what's happened to some Chinese citizens who planned to protest a bank, and had their health codes go red so they could no longer travel. https://www.reuters.com/world/china/china-bank-protest-stopped-by-health-codes-turning-red-depositors-say-2022-06-14/ https://www.reuters.com/world/china/china-bank-protest-stopp... I certainly don't expect credit cards, and the consumer protection they provide, to go away. But I do think it is good that there always be irrevocable foundation (cash and digital cash) that you can fall back on if the institutions in charge end up becoming abusive. That might not be something you and I have to worry about today, but there's no guarantee that the people with the power tomorrow will be as honorable as those today.
- latchkey 4y ago
  California Franchise Tax Board emptied one of my bank accounts recently. No warning, no notice... just boom... we are going to take all your money. Why? Because I moved out of the US for 4 years and didn't file a 0 income in California tax return. They just assumed I owed them money and took it without asking. I'll get the money back some day, I'm sure...
  - nullfield 4y ago
    At a bank in CA? Did they file any kind of legal motion or even need to before just yanking it? If you don’t live in CA you’re not a resident and thus not obligated to file, one would assume, and if they lifted the money out of a bank account in another state… what are you even supposed to do?
    - latchkey 4y ago
      Citibank, California. No notice or legal motion. I only knew about it because I had setup withdraw alerts on the account. I received a letter from the bank a few days after the fact, so it is clear they knew how to get to me. They also charged me some $125 'legal fee'. You'd think that if you move out of state or even the country... but apparently, as I've found out now, the FTB is pretty hardcore about these things. You have to file 0 on California tax returns even after you leave the state. I had only kept the account open so that I could xfer money oversees more easily as there was a citibank branch in Vietnam (where I moved) that allowed for free ~24 hour xfers. I kept a minimal amount of funds in there to avoid fees. Luckily, I use another bank primarily and the FTB didn't go after that account, otherwise, I'd be broke and unable to pay my bills. So yea, it definitely has me on edge now about banks in general. I was already pro-crypto and now I'm only more so. Too many people feel it isn't their problem... until it is.
- beambot 4y ago
  Or Canada freezing bank accounts of protesters without court orders: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-60383385 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-60383385
- danaris 4y ago
  With irreversible transactions, no matter what humans do or say, a mistake can't be undone. With reversible transactions, human judgement enters into it. Human judgement is imperfect and corruptible, but it's better than rigid rules that can't be changed even in emergencies or other unusual situations that their makers didn't foresee (or just didn't care about).
  - anonporridge 4y ago
    Completely false. Humans can come to an agreement that a mistake was made, and the receiver of the transaction can voluntarily do a counter transaction. This is exactly what happens with physical cash. You can't reverse a cash transaction without the receiver's consent, or without violently coercing the receiver to return it. What you're upset about is that we can't come to a human agreement to go back and change history to undo our mistakes. Systems like bitcoin require a roll forward to correct things, and never allow unilateral roll backs.
numtel 4y ago
That's outdated reasoning. With stablecoins, you get the reliable store of value along with the transactional guarantees.

latchkey 4y ago

Take a loan out against your bitcoin. Use that loan to pay for things. Pay off the loan. BTC becomes a reliable store of value as you're no longer concerned with the daily price changes, only your collateralization ratio.

anonporridge 4y ago

And reversible transactions sounds good until you realize that your participation in the economy can be turned off with a keystroke with no recourse by someone sitting in a cubicle thousands of miles away. Kind of like what's happened to some Chinese citizens who planned to protest a bank, and had their health codes go red so they could no longer travel. https://www.reuters.com/world/china/china-bank-protest-stopped-by-health-codes-turning-red-depositors-say-2022-06-14/ https://www.reuters.com/world/china/china-bank-protest-stopp... I certainly don't expect credit cards, and the consumer protection they provide, to go away. But I do think it is good that there always be irrevocable foundation (cash and digital cash) that you can fall back on if the institutions in charge end up becoming abusive. That might not be something you and I have to worry about today, but there's no guarantee that the people with the power tomorrow will be as honorable as those today.

latchkey 4y ago
California Franchise Tax Board emptied one of my bank accounts recently. No warning, no notice... just boom... we are going to take all your money. Why? Because I moved out of the US for 4 years and didn't file a 0 income in California tax return. They just assumed I owed them money and took it without asking. I'll get the money back some day, I'm sure...
- nullfield 4y ago
  At a bank in CA? Did they file any kind of legal motion or even need to before just yanking it? If you don’t live in CA you’re not a resident and thus not obligated to file, one would assume, and if they lifted the money out of a bank account in another state… what are you even supposed to do?
  - latchkey 4y ago
    Citibank, California. No notice or legal motion. I only knew about it because I had setup withdraw alerts on the account. I received a letter from the bank a few days after the fact, so it is clear they knew how to get to me. They also charged me some $125 'legal fee'. You'd think that if you move out of state or even the country... but apparently, as I've found out now, the FTB is pretty hardcore about these things. You have to file 0 on California tax returns even after you leave the state. I had only kept the account open so that I could xfer money oversees more easily as there was a citibank branch in Vietnam (where I moved) that allowed for free ~24 hour xfers. I kept a minimal amount of funds in there to avoid fees. Luckily, I use another bank primarily and the FTB didn't go after that account, otherwise, I'd be broke and unable to pay my bills. So yea, it definitely has me on edge now about banks in general. I was already pro-crypto and now I'm only more so. Too many people feel it isn't their problem... until it is.
beambot 4y ago
Or Canada freezing bank accounts of protesters without court orders: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-60383385 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-60383385
danaris 4y ago
With irreversible transactions, no matter what humans do or say, a mistake can't be undone. With reversible transactions, human judgement enters into it. Human judgement is imperfect and corruptible, but it's better than rigid rules that can't be changed even in emergencies or other unusual situations that their makers didn't foresee (or just didn't care about).
- anonporridge 4y ago
  Completely false. Humans can come to an agreement that a mistake was made, and the receiver of the transaction can voluntarily do a counter transaction. This is exactly what happens with physical cash. You can't reverse a cash transaction without the receiver's consent, or without violently coercing the receiver to return it. What you're upset about is that we can't come to a human agreement to go back and change history to undo our mistakes. Systems like bitcoin require a roll forward to correct things, and never allow unilateral roll backs.

numtel 4y ago

That's outdated reasoning. With stablecoins, you get the reliable store of value along with the transactional guarantees.