41 ms·

>Currently we think about the nuclear fleet in the Ukraine which is literally under fire from Russia. It's hilarious how the Western politicians and mass media

by fuoqi 4y ago

>Currently we think about the nuclear fleet in the Ukraine which is literally under fire from Russia. It's hilarious how the Western politicians and mass media seriously blame Russia for shelling a nuclear plant which it controls for a number of months. And a lot of people either blindly trust this narrative, or intentionally spread misinformation with the sole goal to demonize Russia as much as possible. It reminds me how Donetsk rebels were blamed for shelling of civilians in territories which they control. It clearly shows how far we are in the post-truth world. Even a tiny bit of critical thinking is enough to understand who truly does the shelling, but titles like "Ukrainian Army shells a nuclear plant" are too inconvenient for the current political climate. As far as I know, the goal of shelling (which for the time being does not target the reactors or the spent fuel storage) is to discourage Russia from disconnecting the Zaporizhzhia nuclear plant from the Ukrainian grid and connect it with the Russian grid instead.

_kbh_ 4y ago
> And a lot of people either blindly trust this narrative, or intentionally spread misinformation with the sole goal to demonize Russia as much as possible. No one needs to demonise a country that commits genocide and has its military rape children, the Russians are plenty good at demonising themselves. > As far as I know, the goal of shelling (which for the time being does not target the reactors or the spent fuel storage) is to discourage Russia from disconnecting the Zaporizhzhia nuclear plant from the Ukrainian grid and connect it with the Russian grid instead. The goal of the shelling _is_ to disconnect the power plant, the Russians are shelling the plant to try and cause issues with the connection to the Ukrainian grid which they successfully did in the past couple days.
- gdy 4y ago
  "and has its military rape children" Yeah, right. The woman spreading these accounts got finally fired. "... also accuses her [Lyudmyla Denisova] of having focused too much on media work, and on describing sexually motivated crimes in gratuitous detail as well as the raping of children in occupied territories. However, some of these accounts, he said, had not been verified, which had harmed Ukraine's reputation and distracted media attention from other, proven crimes and problems." [0] [0] https://www.dw.com/en/why-ukraines-human-rights-chief-lyudmyla-denisova-was-dismissed/a-62017920 https://www.dw.com/en/why-ukraines-human-rights-chief-lyudmy...
  - _kbh_ 4y ago
    > Yeah, right. The woman spreading these accounts got finally fired. You're speaking like the Russian army is some sort of pillar of society that would never do a thing. We know that they regularly rape, torture and commit war crimes. In multiple cities in Ukraine. This isn't really disputable they even brag on camera about wanting to commit genocide and even castrate people on camera. Here's an article on the crimes they have committed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_violence_in_the_2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_violence_in_the_2022_Ru...
    - gdy 4y ago
      The wikipedia article you are referring to doesn't even mention rape of children. It, however, contains this paragraph: "Lyudmyla Denisova, Ombudsman in Ukraine for human rights, "speculated" that sexual violence was being used as a weapon of war by Russian forces.[15][23] Denisova was fired from her position in the end of May, 2022. She later admitted to making "“exaggerated” reports of sexual crimes by Russian soldiers in order to get Ukraine more weaponry.[24]"
      - _kbh_ 4y ago
        Its true that it doesn't mention child rape but it mentions rape and torture of plenty of others. The point I was making is that its not like Russia likes to abide by either the Geneva convention or sway away from committing war crimes.
        gdy 4y ago
        No, you were trying to disprove "a lot of people ... intentionally spread misinformation with the sole goal to demonize Russia as much as possible" and were caught spreading misinformation.
        _kbh_ 4y ago
        > No, you were trying to disprove "a lot of people ... intentionally spread misinformation with the sole goal to demonize Russia as much as possible" and were caught spreading misinformation. They rape, torture and commit genocide. Just because there was one instance of someone being fired doesn't make everything said after false, theres other accounts of child rape too. For example this article was posted on the 21st of august - https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2022-08-21/russias-most-hidden-crime-in-ukraine-war-rape https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2022-08-21/russia...
- actionfromafar 4y ago
  But why don't they just cut the connection at the plant. Agreed about demonizing themselves, they do.
  - _kbh_ 4y ago
    > But why don't they just cut the connection at the plant. Agreed about demonizing themselves, they do. This assumes Russia is a rational actor, they could want to do it and try and have leverage to blame the Ukrainians they could want to do it and try and cause a disaster and blame the Ukrainians.
    - actionfromafar 4y ago
      That's very rational, actually. Not very nice, though.
- fuoqi 4y ago
  >No one needs to demonise a country that commits genocide and has its military rape children, "Genocide" became a meaningless word because it's used willy-nilly similarly to "terrorism". Even if we are to trust number of civilian deaths reported by Western and Ukrainian sources it's really far from being "genocide". IIRC in relative terms, the US invasion of Iraq with subsequent fight against ISIS is closer to "genocide" than the invasion of Ukraine. And as for "rape children", it's yet another blatant demonization. The lies became so toxic, Zelensky even had to fire Denisova, the person responsible for distributing most of such claims without properly supporting them with evidence. Most of "Russian soldiers rape children" articles you read in the Western media were citing Denisova. >The goal of the shelling _is_ to disconnect the power plant Oh wow... Are you incapable of critical thinking? Like at all? Russians can always physically cut wires in the territory they control. If they wanted, they could've easily bombed every substation in Ukraine with its missiles. But because they do have some humanitarian considerations, they don't do it (unlike some other countries). As we can see, Russia has no techincal trouble bombing stationary objects as far as the westernmost Ukraine.
  - _kbh_ 4y ago
    > "Genocide" became a meaningless word because it's used willy-nilly similarly to "terrorism". Even if we are to trust number of civilian deaths reported by Western and Ukrainian sources it's really far from being "genocide". IIRC in relative terms, the US invasion of Iraq with subsequent fight against ISIS is closer to "genocide" than the invasion of Ukraine. Genocide has a definition and even basing our assertions of just what Russia is admitting that they are doing they meet the definition of genocide, its not meaningless it just has a broader definition then most people know. You can read the definition of genocide from here. >> https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml >> In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: >> Killing members of the group; >> Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; >> Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; >> Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; >> Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group. You could argue about some of the points but Russia _proudly_ admits they are kidnapping Ukrainian children and forcibly relocating them to Russia. So they meet point 5 of the UN definition of genocide. > And as for "rape children", it's yet another blatant demonization. The lies became so toxic, Zelensky even had to fire Denisova, the person responsible for distributing most of such claims without properly supporting them with evidence. Most of "Russian soldiers rape children" articles you read in the Western media were citing Denisova. There are multiple counts of different atrocities that the Russians had committed if you want to discount the child rape go for it, but we plenty of evidence of Russia raping plenty of people in Ukraine. > Oh wow... Are you incapable of critical thinking? Like at all? Russians can always physically cut wires in the territory they control. Are you incapable of discussing something in a civil manner?. Please read the guidelines for hacker news https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. > If they wanted, they could've easily bombed every substation in Ukraine with its missiles. But because they do have some humanitarian considerations, they don't do it (unlike some other countries). As we can see, Russia has no techincal trouble bombing stationary objects as far as the westernmost Ukraine. Yes the country that is levelling cities, kidnapping and forcibly deporting children, and raping women (and allegedly children) has 'humanitarian considerations'. Russia regularly uses civilian deaths as a part of its war machine they are trying to do it to Ukraine like they did it too Chechnya in Grozny. It's why they force civilians to stay in the cities they capture.

by fuoqi 4y ago

_kbh_ 4y ago

> And a lot of people either blindly trust this narrative, or intentionally spread misinformation with the sole goal to demonize Russia as much as possible. No one needs to demonise a country that commits genocide and has its military rape children, the Russians are plenty good at demonising themselves. > As far as I know, the goal of shelling (which for the time being does not target the reactors or the spent fuel storage) is to discourage Russia from disconnecting the Zaporizhzhia nuclear plant from the Ukrainian grid and connect it with the Russian grid instead. The goal of the shelling _is_ to disconnect the power plant, the Russians are shelling the plant to try and cause issues with the connection to the Ukrainian grid which they successfully did in the past couple days.

gdy 4y ago
"and has its military rape children" Yeah, right. The woman spreading these accounts got finally fired. "... also accuses her [Lyudmyla Denisova] of having focused too much on media work, and on describing sexually motivated crimes in gratuitous detail as well as the raping of children in occupied territories. However, some of these accounts, he said, had not been verified, which had harmed Ukraine's reputation and distracted media attention from other, proven crimes and problems." [0] [0] https://www.dw.com/en/why-ukraines-human-rights-chief-lyudmyla-denisova-was-dismissed/a-62017920 https://www.dw.com/en/why-ukraines-human-rights-chief-lyudmy...
- _kbh_ 4y ago
  > Yeah, right. The woman spreading these accounts got finally fired. You're speaking like the Russian army is some sort of pillar of society that would never do a thing. We know that they regularly rape, torture and commit war crimes. In multiple cities in Ukraine. This isn't really disputable they even brag on camera about wanting to commit genocide and even castrate people on camera. Here's an article on the crimes they have committed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_violence_in_the_2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_violence_in_the_2022_Ru...
  - gdy 4y ago
    The wikipedia article you are referring to doesn't even mention rape of children. It, however, contains this paragraph: "Lyudmyla Denisova, Ombudsman in Ukraine for human rights, "speculated" that sexual violence was being used as a weapon of war by Russian forces.[15][23] Denisova was fired from her position in the end of May, 2022. She later admitted to making "“exaggerated” reports of sexual crimes by Russian soldiers in order to get Ukraine more weaponry.[24]"
    - _kbh_ 4y ago
      Its true that it doesn't mention child rape but it mentions rape and torture of plenty of others. The point I was making is that its not like Russia likes to abide by either the Geneva convention or sway away from committing war crimes.
      - gdy 4y ago
        No, you were trying to disprove "a lot of people ... intentionally spread misinformation with the sole goal to demonize Russia as much as possible" and were caught spreading misinformation.
        _kbh_ 4y ago
        > No, you were trying to disprove "a lot of people ... intentionally spread misinformation with the sole goal to demonize Russia as much as possible" and were caught spreading misinformation. They rape, torture and commit genocide. Just because there was one instance of someone being fired doesn't make everything said after false, theres other accounts of child rape too. For example this article was posted on the 21st of august - https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2022-08-21/russias-most-hidden-crime-in-ukraine-war-rape https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2022-08-21/russia...
actionfromafar 4y ago
But why don't they just cut the connection at the plant. Agreed about demonizing themselves, they do.
- _kbh_ 4y ago
  > But why don't they just cut the connection at the plant. Agreed about demonizing themselves, they do. This assumes Russia is a rational actor, they could want to do it and try and have leverage to blame the Ukrainians they could want to do it and try and cause a disaster and blame the Ukrainians.
  - actionfromafar 4y ago
    That's very rational, actually. Not very nice, though.
fuoqi 4y ago
>No one needs to demonise a country that commits genocide and has its military rape children, "Genocide" became a meaningless word because it's used willy-nilly similarly to "terrorism". Even if we are to trust number of civilian deaths reported by Western and Ukrainian sources it's really far from being "genocide". IIRC in relative terms, the US invasion of Iraq with subsequent fight against ISIS is closer to "genocide" than the invasion of Ukraine. And as for "rape children", it's yet another blatant demonization. The lies became so toxic, Zelensky even had to fire Denisova, the person responsible for distributing most of such claims without properly supporting them with evidence. Most of "Russian soldiers rape children" articles you read in the Western media were citing Denisova. >The goal of the shelling _is_ to disconnect the power plant Oh wow... Are you incapable of critical thinking? Like at all? Russians can always physically cut wires in the territory they control. If they wanted, they could've easily bombed every substation in Ukraine with its missiles. But because they do have some humanitarian considerations, they don't do it (unlike some other countries). As we can see, Russia has no techincal trouble bombing stationary objects as far as the westernmost Ukraine.
- _kbh_ 4y ago
  > "Genocide" became a meaningless word because it's used willy-nilly similarly to "terrorism". Even if we are to trust number of civilian deaths reported by Western and Ukrainian sources it's really far from being "genocide". IIRC in relative terms, the US invasion of Iraq with subsequent fight against ISIS is closer to "genocide" than the invasion of Ukraine. Genocide has a definition and even basing our assertions of just what Russia is admitting that they are doing they meet the definition of genocide, its not meaningless it just has a broader definition then most people know. You can read the definition of genocide from here. >> https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml >> In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: >> Killing members of the group; >> Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; >> Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; >> Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; >> Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group. You could argue about some of the points but Russia _proudly_ admits they are kidnapping Ukrainian children and forcibly relocating them to Russia. So they meet point 5 of the UN definition of genocide. > And as for "rape children", it's yet another blatant demonization. The lies became so toxic, Zelensky even had to fire Denisova, the person responsible for distributing most of such claims without properly supporting them with evidence. Most of "Russian soldiers rape children" articles you read in the Western media were citing Denisova. There are multiple counts of different atrocities that the Russians had committed if you want to discount the child rape go for it, but we plenty of evidence of Russia raping plenty of people in Ukraine. > Oh wow... Are you incapable of critical thinking? Like at all? Russians can always physically cut wires in the territory they control. Are you incapable of discussing something in a civil manner?. Please read the guidelines for hacker news https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. > If they wanted, they could've easily bombed every substation in Ukraine with its missiles. But because they do have some humanitarian considerations, they don't do it (unlike some other countries). As we can see, Russia has no techincal trouble bombing stationary objects as far as the westernmost Ukraine. Yes the country that is levelling cities, kidnapping and forcibly deporting children, and raping women (and allegedly children) has 'humanitarian considerations'. Russia regularly uses civilian deaths as a part of its war machine they are trying to do it to Ukraine like they did it too Chechnya in Grozny. It's why they force civilians to stay in the cities they capture.