8 ms·

This doesn't take into account maintenance, which makes a huge difference ! My EV car (hyundai ioniq 2016) has now 100'000 km (62'000 mi) and I never once went

by Faaak 4y ago

This doesn't take into account maintenance, which makes a huge difference ! My EV car (hyundai ioniq 2016) has now 100'000 km (62'000 mi) and I never once went to the garage for a service (except for tyres of course). Brake pads are still new, no oil change needed, etc.. Can't imagine how much it would've cost on a gas car

jchonphoenix 4y ago
How does this work? Brake pads don't seem like they should be different on an EV. It's really just the engine components that should have less wear and tear and those only come into play at the 30k and 60k mark
- baq 4y ago
  In an EV you don't actually use the brakes if you don't brake hard, engine does energy recovery instead.
- albertopv 4y ago
  EV with KERS use brake pads much much less, my mechanic can confirm, he always complains how much less work he has to do on an electric car.
- neilalexander 4y ago
  I imagine the wear on the pads is reduced by the regenerative braking from the motors.
  - serpix 4y ago
    Eliminated almost entirely, they should revert to drums on EVs as discs get rust on them.
    - lotsofpulp 4y ago
      Why are discs more susceptible to rust than drums?
      - sokoloff 4y ago
        The braking surface is on the outside, more exposed to water splash. Drums are not "sealed", but are much more closed off.
    - ZeroGravitas 4y ago
      This has started, ID.3 and 4 has them on rear wheels I think. https://www.thedrive.com/news/36683/why-the-new-volkswagen-id-4-electric-crossover-has-rear-drum-brakes https://www.thedrive.com/news/36683/why-the-new-volkswagen-i... They're also looking at making light weight aluminum brake pads that don't rust from less use.
      - mikestew 4y ago
        "The brand also says that drum brakes offer superior performance and reactivity after long periods of disuse" Sounds like marketing to excuse putting drums on the rear of a $50K vehicle. As soon as I back out of the driveway in our Leaf, because there's no regenerative braking in reverse at 5mph, it knocks the light layer of rust off the discs and we're good to go. I mean, we've been driving this car for eleven years, and not once from a cold start have we gone to hit the brakes outside the regen envelope (say, when we've charged to %100, and nowhere to put that regen energy) and said, "OMG! OMG! Poor brake performance!" What VW really said in that link was, "doesn't need rear discs: regen braking".
- wffurr 4y ago
  Brakes get a lot less wear because you’re mainly relying on regenerative braking using the electric motors in reverse. If your driving style is gentle enough, it can bring the car to a complete stop in a reasonable distance. The mechanical brakes are then only engaged when the car is fully stopped already.
- daemin 4y ago
  Electric vehicles don't use the brakes that much as they can slow the car down by switching the elctric motors from using electricity to accelerate to using the wheels to generate electricity thereby slowing the car down. Case in point that whole situation "recently" where a woman got a Tesla with no brake pads installed on it.
- Yizahi 4y ago
  Oil, filters and work on them is pricy at the official dealers (if you care about warranty). Also more failure points - turbines, injectors, gas pump, exhaust, gearbox, oiling system in general. Just a single gearbox or turbine failure can cost thousands. EVs are really cheaper in general, however you compare.
  - lotsofpulp 4y ago
    Where does getting an oil filter changed by a non dealer void the warranty? Oil/air filters and brakes are $50 and $500 at most. Everything else is pretty reliable for a couple hundred thousand miles assuming a decent brand car like Toyota or Honda. At US gas prices, I have yet to see an EV be shown to be a better value than a car/minivan/SUV/pickup truck, especially if driving 10k miles or less per year. The upfront cost on EVs is huge, and many alternatives such as minivans do not even exist yet.
    - ZeroGravitas 4y ago
      https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/ohim/onh00/bar8.htm https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/ohim/onh00/bar8.htm 10K miles or less is a bit of an outlier.
      - lotsofpulp 4y ago
        I would not be able to discern 10k miles or less for a car is an outlier from those data points, it does not say anything about the underlying distribution. Not to mention the whole female column is pretty much 10k and below, as well as men over 65. This is a little bit better breakdown, but I could find miles driven by decile. I would assume it greatly differs by location and is greatly skewer by people who drive a lot. https://www.thezebra.com/resources/driving/average-miles-driven-per-year/ https://www.thezebra.com/resources/driving/average-miles-dri... Either way, the purpose of the miles driven per year in cost calculations is because after a certain amount of miles, the up front higher cost of electric is offset by lower per mile costs of driving electric. Assuming fuel costs stay the same, then people who drive less have less incentive to go electric.
- throwaway0a5e 4y ago
  > How does this work? Maintenance in the first 100-150k (I really want to say ~200 but that will depend largely on the treatment the vehicle gets in the first 100) is basically nothing other than short term wear items (pads and tires) and preventative maintenance (transmission fluid at 50k, air filter at 20k, stuff like that). As EVs get long in the tooth they will exhibit all the same "stuff between the vehicle and the road is wearing out" problems that literally every other wheeled vehicle on this earth exhibits. It's not like equipping a car with an electric drive train makes all the steering and suspension parts (that account for the bulk of the late in life maintenance) magically cease to exist
  - nickv 4y ago
    Except there are less parts overall in an EV. Way way way way less parts. And way way way way less fluids for said parts. Less parts means less things to maintenance. Less fluids means less things to refill. In terms of "wearing out" the big questions really centers on the battery itself. We're seeing pretty low battery degradation on Teslas that have been on the road for 5+ years [1]. The data indicates that at 100k miles they lose about 5% power, which is pretty good. This is data about Teslas specifically though (they're the only car company that has enough long term data at scale to do this analysis on) and every car company has a different battery composition. But aside from the battery (which is a BIG aside), there is a lot less parts (especially moving parts) that have to be watched/maintained/etc. [1] https://electrek.co/2020/06/06/tesla-battery-degradation-replacement/ https://electrek.co/2020/06/06/tesla-battery-degradation-rep...
- Pelentio 4y ago
  I drove down a hill 15 minutes and didn't use the breaks once. The display then said 'recovered 9x%'. It also feels less wasteful on the Autobahn as well because quick deceleration is also possible. The adaptive Speedcontrol can handle like 99% of the cases were cars slow down or switch into your lane. With the general speed limit in USA I think that should also be possible.makes driving much nicer
  - culopatin 4y ago
    Adaptive cruise control in the us means jumping on the brakes every 30 seconds when someone goes straight from the on-ramp to the leftmost lane at 20 under the limit. I only get to use my cruise control at night
badpun 4y ago
I have a 2012 petrol car with 72000 km on it and total costs of maintenance and (almost non-existant) repairs so far has been around $1500 (here in Poland). That's nothing compared to the extra upfront cost of an electric car. The economics are probably less favorable for petrol cars in countries where skilled labor is more expensive though.
lotsofpulp 4y ago
At 62k miles and 6 years, that would have probably been 6 to 10 oil and air filter changes, at $50 each would be $500. Brake pads would be $500. Miscellaneous other might be $500. Easily less than $1,500 for most decent brand cars. Excluding the common cost of tires, of course. How much extra did the Ioniq cost in 2016 over a Sonata or Acccord or Corolla or whatever the equivalent gas car would have been?
- piceas 4y ago
  And how does it compare in 2022?
- toss1 4y ago
  True, although there is also the advantage of convenience - all the time recovered from NOT having to go either fetch the materials and do teh maintainence yourself or bring the vehicle to the dealer/service station and wait. Count it as two hours each time, and it's easily 20 hours saved, more than half a work week that you are now free to do something else
  - lotsofpulp 4y ago
    Good point. Really depends what the difference in up front cost is. Anything more than $5k, and I think ICE is still prudent if you are not driving at least 15k miles per year. Plus, ICE are time tested. The new EVs coming out have a lot of unknown risks and reputation to still build up. I do not mind letting others beta test.
    - toss1 4y ago
      yup, excellent points about the price delta and beta/gamma testing. I'm really enthusiastic about the technology, but will likely wait until my relatively good condition auto degrades and the EVs keep improving.
alkonaut 4y ago
There is a service interval that will (depending on where you are) mean you should do probably at least 5 services before 100'000km. True, most of those services will be mere inspections because there is simply nothing to service, but there will be a service schedule that has lots of items in it before 100k km. There are cabin air filter, maybe gear fluid (depending on model) and so on. For a new car, I'd do them just to ensure there is no fuss with warranties. So in short: service intervals for EV's don't seem longer than for ICE cars at all. They are pretty typical car service intervals of 10k-15k km BUT the key is they should be cheaper.

by Faaak 4y ago

jchonphoenix 4y ago

How does this work? Brake pads don't seem like they should be different on an EV. It's really just the engine components that should have less wear and tear and those only come into play at the 30k and 60k mark

baq 4y ago
In an EV you don't actually use the brakes if you don't brake hard, engine does energy recovery instead.
albertopv 4y ago
EV with KERS use brake pads much much less, my mechanic can confirm, he always complains how much less work he has to do on an electric car.
neilalexander 4y ago
I imagine the wear on the pads is reduced by the regenerative braking from the motors.
- serpix 4y ago
  Eliminated almost entirely, they should revert to drums on EVs as discs get rust on them.
  - lotsofpulp 4y ago
    Why are discs more susceptible to rust than drums?
    - sokoloff 4y ago
      The braking surface is on the outside, more exposed to water splash. Drums are not "sealed", but are much more closed off.
  - ZeroGravitas 4y ago
    This has started, ID.3 and 4 has them on rear wheels I think. https://www.thedrive.com/news/36683/why-the-new-volkswagen-id-4-electric-crossover-has-rear-drum-brakes https://www.thedrive.com/news/36683/why-the-new-volkswagen-i... They're also looking at making light weight aluminum brake pads that don't rust from less use.
    - mikestew 4y ago
      "The brand also says that drum brakes offer superior performance and reactivity after long periods of disuse" Sounds like marketing to excuse putting drums on the rear of a $50K vehicle. As soon as I back out of the driveway in our Leaf, because there's no regenerative braking in reverse at 5mph, it knocks the light layer of rust off the discs and we're good to go. I mean, we've been driving this car for eleven years, and not once from a cold start have we gone to hit the brakes outside the regen envelope (say, when we've charged to %100, and nowhere to put that regen energy) and said, "OMG! OMG! Poor brake performance!" What VW really said in that link was, "doesn't need rear discs: regen braking".
wffurr 4y ago
Brakes get a lot less wear because you’re mainly relying on regenerative braking using the electric motors in reverse. If your driving style is gentle enough, it can bring the car to a complete stop in a reasonable distance. The mechanical brakes are then only engaged when the car is fully stopped already.
daemin 4y ago
Electric vehicles don't use the brakes that much as they can slow the car down by switching the elctric motors from using electricity to accelerate to using the wheels to generate electricity thereby slowing the car down. Case in point that whole situation "recently" where a woman got a Tesla with no brake pads installed on it.
Yizahi 4y ago
Oil, filters and work on them is pricy at the official dealers (if you care about warranty). Also more failure points - turbines, injectors, gas pump, exhaust, gearbox, oiling system in general. Just a single gearbox or turbine failure can cost thousands. EVs are really cheaper in general, however you compare.
- lotsofpulp 4y ago
  Where does getting an oil filter changed by a non dealer void the warranty? Oil/air filters and brakes are $50 and $500 at most. Everything else is pretty reliable for a couple hundred thousand miles assuming a decent brand car like Toyota or Honda. At US gas prices, I have yet to see an EV be shown to be a better value than a car/minivan/SUV/pickup truck, especially if driving 10k miles or less per year. The upfront cost on EVs is huge, and many alternatives such as minivans do not even exist yet.
  - ZeroGravitas 4y ago
    https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/ohim/onh00/bar8.htm https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/ohim/onh00/bar8.htm 10K miles or less is a bit of an outlier.
    - lotsofpulp 4y ago
      I would not be able to discern 10k miles or less for a car is an outlier from those data points, it does not say anything about the underlying distribution. Not to mention the whole female column is pretty much 10k and below, as well as men over 65. This is a little bit better breakdown, but I could find miles driven by decile. I would assume it greatly differs by location and is greatly skewer by people who drive a lot. https://www.thezebra.com/resources/driving/average-miles-driven-per-year/ https://www.thezebra.com/resources/driving/average-miles-dri... Either way, the purpose of the miles driven per year in cost calculations is because after a certain amount of miles, the up front higher cost of electric is offset by lower per mile costs of driving electric. Assuming fuel costs stay the same, then people who drive less have less incentive to go electric.
throwaway0a5e 4y ago
> How does this work? Maintenance in the first 100-150k (I really want to say ~200 but that will depend largely on the treatment the vehicle gets in the first 100) is basically nothing other than short term wear items (pads and tires) and preventative maintenance (transmission fluid at 50k, air filter at 20k, stuff like that). As EVs get long in the tooth they will exhibit all the same "stuff between the vehicle and the road is wearing out" problems that literally every other wheeled vehicle on this earth exhibits. It's not like equipping a car with an electric drive train makes all the steering and suspension parts (that account for the bulk of the late in life maintenance) magically cease to exist
- nickv 4y ago
  Except there are less parts overall in an EV. Way way way way less parts. And way way way way less fluids for said parts. Less parts means less things to maintenance. Less fluids means less things to refill. In terms of "wearing out" the big questions really centers on the battery itself. We're seeing pretty low battery degradation on Teslas that have been on the road for 5+ years [1]. The data indicates that at 100k miles they lose about 5% power, which is pretty good. This is data about Teslas specifically though (they're the only car company that has enough long term data at scale to do this analysis on) and every car company has a different battery composition. But aside from the battery (which is a BIG aside), there is a lot less parts (especially moving parts) that have to be watched/maintained/etc. [1] https://electrek.co/2020/06/06/tesla-battery-degradation-replacement/ https://electrek.co/2020/06/06/tesla-battery-degradation-rep...
Pelentio 4y ago
I drove down a hill 15 minutes and didn't use the breaks once. The display then said 'recovered 9x%'. It also feels less wasteful on the Autobahn as well because quick deceleration is also possible. The adaptive Speedcontrol can handle like 99% of the cases were cars slow down or switch into your lane. With the general speed limit in USA I think that should also be possible.makes driving much nicer
- culopatin 4y ago
  Adaptive cruise control in the us means jumping on the brakes every 30 seconds when someone goes straight from the on-ramp to the leftmost lane at 20 under the limit. I only get to use my cruise control at night

badpun 4y ago

I have a 2012 petrol car with 72000 km on it and total costs of maintenance and (almost non-existant) repairs so far has been around $1500 (here in Poland). That's nothing compared to the extra upfront cost of an electric car. The economics are probably less favorable for petrol cars in countries where skilled labor is more expensive though.

lotsofpulp 4y ago

At 62k miles and 6 years, that would have probably been 6 to 10 oil and air filter changes, at $50 each would be $500. Brake pads would be $500. Miscellaneous other might be $500. Easily less than $1,500 for most decent brand cars. Excluding the common cost of tires, of course. How much extra did the Ioniq cost in 2016 over a Sonata or Acccord or Corolla or whatever the equivalent gas car would have been?

piceas 4y ago
And how does it compare in 2022?
toss1 4y ago
True, although there is also the advantage of convenience - all the time recovered from NOT having to go either fetch the materials and do teh maintainence yourself or bring the vehicle to the dealer/service station and wait. Count it as two hours each time, and it's easily 20 hours saved, more than half a work week that you are now free to do something else
- lotsofpulp 4y ago
  Good point. Really depends what the difference in up front cost is. Anything more than $5k, and I think ICE is still prudent if you are not driving at least 15k miles per year. Plus, ICE are time tested. The new EVs coming out have a lot of unknown risks and reputation to still build up. I do not mind letting others beta test.
  - toss1 4y ago
    yup, excellent points about the price delta and beta/gamma testing. I'm really enthusiastic about the technology, but will likely wait until my relatively good condition auto degrades and the EVs keep improving.

alkonaut 4y ago

There is a service interval that will (depending on where you are) mean you should do probably at least 5 services before 100'000km. True, most of those services will be mere inspections because there is simply nothing to service, but there will be a service schedule that has lots of items in it before 100k km. There are cabin air filter, maybe gear fluid (depending on model) and so on. For a new car, I'd do them just to ensure there is no fuss with warranties. So in short: service intervals for EV's don't seem longer than for ICE cars at all. They are pretty typical car service intervals of 10k-15k km BUT the key is they should be cheaper.