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The amount of electricity generated over the course of a year is irrelevant without storage. We could generate 1000% of our energy needs and still not have enou

The amount of electricity generated over the course of a year is irrelevant without storage. We could generate 1000% of our energy needs and still not have enough, if we generate 2000% in summer and 0% in winter. We need to generate 100% of our energy needs every single hour. Renewables are practically incapable of doing this on their own. They can reduce the use of fossil fuelds (or nuclear power), but not replace them.

mschuster91 4y ago
> We need to generate 100% of our energy needs every single hour. Renewables are practically incapable of doing this on their own. They can reduce the use of fossil fuelds (or nuclear power), but not replace them. Install enough windmills across the entire coastal areas of Europe, add thousands of kilometers long cross-continental UHVDC links like China does [1] and even winter won't be a problem. Besides: using biomass / biogas fuel for conventional burner plants is climate neutral, and the supply is enough to cover half of the deliveries of Russia [2]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-high-voltage_electricity_transmission_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-high-voltage_electricity... [2] https://www.tagesschau.de/wirtschaft/technologie/biogas-statt-erdgas-101.html https://www.tagesschau.de/wirtschaft/technologie/biogas-stat...
- tjansen 4y ago
  > Install enough windmills across the entire coastal areas of Europe, That's completely unrealistic. There are times when in all of Europe there is little to no wind. Certainly not enough that one region can provide enough power for all of Europe. Maybe it's possible in China, I don't now their climate, but even they are planning to increase the number of nuclear power plants.
  - mschuster91 4y ago
    We need a complete transformation of our power usage in any case, both to save energy demand and to make the grid more flexible: - insulate buildings so that they better retain heat. This one is massive - over a third of all energy consumption goes towards buildings [1]! - promote heat pumps (either to air or ground) because these are far more energy efficient for air conditioning and hot water generation - help poorer households to save energy - especially those who can't afford to replace their 20 years old fridge which consumes over double the power that a modern appliance needs [2]. - resilient grids with photo-voltaic energy generation on every roof and distributed battery storage - smart grids that can (dis)incentivize large loads like water heaters or electric vehicles automatically based on grid generation capacity - more incentives for high-energy consuming industries to act as a dynamic power sink or to operate only in times where energy is plentiful - shut down street lights at night or make them smart to only be alight when needed - lighting consumes about 0.7% of the total power consumption [0], but as it runs at night where solar power is offline by definition, its impact on base load is worse. - completely ban advertisements using lighting at night Ideally, we would have continuous renewable or at least climate neutral-ish generation power (geothermal, tidal, running water power, biogas and waste incineration and whatever is the sum of the lowest-ever-available-wind power) to cover the base load, and have consumers smartly adapt on current electricity prices. [0] https://www.strassenbeleuchtung.de/index.php/technik/34-grundlagen-der-strassenbeleuchtung/319-zahlen-und-fakten https://www.strassenbeleuchtung.de/index.php/technik/34-grun... [1] https://www.dena.de/themen-projekte/energieeffizienz/gebaeude/ https://www.dena.de/themen-projekte/energieeffizienz/gebaeud... [2] https://www.verbraucherzentrale.nrw/sites/default/files/2022-04/kurzstudie_stromeffizienz_kuelgeraete_2022.pdf https://www.verbraucherzentrale.nrw/sites/default/files/2022...
    - tjansen 4y ago
      Just a few comments: - the things you list are insanely expensive (just keep that in mind next time you say that nuclear power is expensive... you also need to figure these costs in when comparing to EE, because you wouldn't need to do this with nuclear) - PV with battery storage is great for autarky and reducing fossils, but won't reduce the need for base load after a week without sun in winter, when all the batteries are empty.. - things like heat pumps that replace fossils will increase electricity consumption. I think current estimates are that electricity consumption may increase 50-100%. - there is just not a lot of potential for additional renewable base load in Germany. Bio gas, hydro, geothermal.. they are all pretty must at their limits. there is just no way around either burning fossils, using nuclear or having an insane amount of storage.
      - mschuster91 4y ago
        > - the things you list are insanely expensive (just keep that in mind next time you say that nuclear power is expensive... you also need to figure these costs in when comparing to EE, because you wouldn't need to do this with nuclear) We absolutely need to do this anyway and fast, because there will not be any massive amount of new nuclear power going online - even if we were to start out a buildout offensive in nuclear plants, it would take ten to fifteen years at best, and we need to conserve as much energy as we can in the meantime. > - PV with battery storage is great for autarky and reducing fossils, but won't reduce the need for base load after a week without sun in winter, when all the batteries are empty.. Which is why industry needs to be incentivized to shut down in such times. China does it by force, we can offer financial incentives. > Bio gas, hydro, geothermal.. they are all pretty must at their limits. there is just no way around either burning fossils, using nuclear or having an insane amount of storage. Biogas has a lot of potential, as well as geothermal. We just need to get going after 16 years of sabotage by the conservatives.
        tjansen 4y ago
        > We absolutely need to do this anyway No. Only if we want to be the only major country in the civilised world that doesn't use nuclear power despite having not enough hydro power. > would take ten to fifteen years at best, This is extremely optimistic for wind power, and even more for rebuilding the electricity grid. Even if you can somehow shorten the planning processes: We are in the middle of a workers shortage and a supply-chain crisis. Who should build all these wind parks? And all the other things you listed, like building isolations and heat pumps. Shut down universities and require everybody to work in construction for a couple of years? > we need to conserve as much energy as we can in the meantime. Why? What's the outcome? Kill the economy? Who should pay for all these things? > Biogas has a lot of potential, as well as geothermal. Biogas needs agricultural land and thereby competes with food, and thus has other implications. Geothermal would be nice to have, and I think everybody agrees on that, but it's going nowhere. And as far I know not only in Germany, but everywhere.
- dontlaugh 4y ago
  China's energy policy is indeed one of the few rational ones. But besides vast improvements in renewables, transmission and storage, China has also invested in new better nuclear designs.

mschuster91 4y ago

> We need to generate 100% of our energy needs every single hour. Renewables are practically incapable of doing this on their own. They can reduce the use of fossil fuelds (or nuclear power), but not replace them. Install enough windmills across the entire coastal areas of Europe, add thousands of kilometers long cross-continental UHVDC links like China does [1] and even winter won't be a problem. Besides: using biomass / biogas fuel for conventional burner plants is climate neutral, and the supply is enough to cover half of the deliveries of Russia [2]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-high-voltage_electricity_transmission_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-high-voltage_electricity... [2] https://www.tagesschau.de/wirtschaft/technologie/biogas-statt-erdgas-101.html https://www.tagesschau.de/wirtschaft/technologie/biogas-stat...

tjansen 4y ago
> Install enough windmills across the entire coastal areas of Europe, That's completely unrealistic. There are times when in all of Europe there is little to no wind. Certainly not enough that one region can provide enough power for all of Europe. Maybe it's possible in China, I don't now their climate, but even they are planning to increase the number of nuclear power plants.
- mschuster91 4y ago
  We need a complete transformation of our power usage in any case, both to save energy demand and to make the grid more flexible: - insulate buildings so that they better retain heat. This one is massive - over a third of all energy consumption goes towards buildings [1]! - promote heat pumps (either to air or ground) because these are far more energy efficient for air conditioning and hot water generation - help poorer households to save energy - especially those who can't afford to replace their 20 years old fridge which consumes over double the power that a modern appliance needs [2]. - resilient grids with photo-voltaic energy generation on every roof and distributed battery storage - smart grids that can (dis)incentivize large loads like water heaters or electric vehicles automatically based on grid generation capacity - more incentives for high-energy consuming industries to act as a dynamic power sink or to operate only in times where energy is plentiful - shut down street lights at night or make them smart to only be alight when needed - lighting consumes about 0.7% of the total power consumption [0], but as it runs at night where solar power is offline by definition, its impact on base load is worse. - completely ban advertisements using lighting at night Ideally, we would have continuous renewable or at least climate neutral-ish generation power (geothermal, tidal, running water power, biogas and waste incineration and whatever is the sum of the lowest-ever-available-wind power) to cover the base load, and have consumers smartly adapt on current electricity prices. [0] https://www.strassenbeleuchtung.de/index.php/technik/34-grundlagen-der-strassenbeleuchtung/319-zahlen-und-fakten https://www.strassenbeleuchtung.de/index.php/technik/34-grun... [1] https://www.dena.de/themen-projekte/energieeffizienz/gebaeude/ https://www.dena.de/themen-projekte/energieeffizienz/gebaeud... [2] https://www.verbraucherzentrale.nrw/sites/default/files/2022-04/kurzstudie_stromeffizienz_kuelgeraete_2022.pdf https://www.verbraucherzentrale.nrw/sites/default/files/2022...
  - tjansen 4y ago
    Just a few comments: - the things you list are insanely expensive (just keep that in mind next time you say that nuclear power is expensive... you also need to figure these costs in when comparing to EE, because you wouldn't need to do this with nuclear) - PV with battery storage is great for autarky and reducing fossils, but won't reduce the need for base load after a week without sun in winter, when all the batteries are empty.. - things like heat pumps that replace fossils will increase electricity consumption. I think current estimates are that electricity consumption may increase 50-100%. - there is just not a lot of potential for additional renewable base load in Germany. Bio gas, hydro, geothermal.. they are all pretty must at their limits. there is just no way around either burning fossils, using nuclear or having an insane amount of storage.
    - mschuster91 4y ago
      > - the things you list are insanely expensive (just keep that in mind next time you say that nuclear power is expensive... you also need to figure these costs in when comparing to EE, because you wouldn't need to do this with nuclear) We absolutely need to do this anyway and fast, because there will not be any massive amount of new nuclear power going online - even if we were to start out a buildout offensive in nuclear plants, it would take ten to fifteen years at best, and we need to conserve as much energy as we can in the meantime. > - PV with battery storage is great for autarky and reducing fossils, but won't reduce the need for base load after a week without sun in winter, when all the batteries are empty.. Which is why industry needs to be incentivized to shut down in such times. China does it by force, we can offer financial incentives. > Bio gas, hydro, geothermal.. they are all pretty must at their limits. there is just no way around either burning fossils, using nuclear or having an insane amount of storage. Biogas has a lot of potential, as well as geothermal. We just need to get going after 16 years of sabotage by the conservatives.
      - tjansen 4y ago
        > We absolutely need to do this anyway No. Only if we want to be the only major country in the civilised world that doesn't use nuclear power despite having not enough hydro power. > would take ten to fifteen years at best, This is extremely optimistic for wind power, and even more for rebuilding the electricity grid. Even if you can somehow shorten the planning processes: We are in the middle of a workers shortage and a supply-chain crisis. Who should build all these wind parks? And all the other things you listed, like building isolations and heat pumps. Shut down universities and require everybody to work in construction for a couple of years? > we need to conserve as much energy as we can in the meantime. Why? What's the outcome? Kill the economy? Who should pay for all these things? > Biogas has a lot of potential, as well as geothermal. Biogas needs agricultural land and thereby competes with food, and thus has other implications. Geothermal would be nice to have, and I think everybody agrees on that, but it's going nowhere. And as far I know not only in Germany, but everywhere.
dontlaugh 4y ago
China's energy policy is indeed one of the few rational ones. But besides vast improvements in renewables, transmission and storage, China has also invested in new better nuclear designs.