5 ms·

>1300 kwh/year this is extremely, extremely low. No heating, no cooling, no hot water, no car charging. A fridge alone tends to be over 400KW/h. Edit: polycas

by xxs 4y ago

>1300 kwh/year this is extremely, extremely low. No heating, no cooling, no hot water, no car charging. A fridge alone tends to be over 400KW/h. Edit: polycaster listed close to 5kWh/year for 3+ household. 1person being 2k. So, extremely low estimate.

ivan_gammel 4y ago
Heating is a separate cost, rarely electric. Cooling - did you know that Germans aren’t big fans of A/C? Hot water - same as heating. Besides, in Germany we don’t say “Car charging”, we say “eat healthy and ride your bike”.
- xxs 4y ago
  >Heating is a separate cost, rarely electric. Of course, geothermal pumps are still a better option than most.
  - ivan_gammel 4y ago
    You can call it geothermal, when it comes from underground pipes ;) District level heating still exists in some areas, also quite often there’s a single oil or gas boiler for a multi-apartment building.
- odshoifsdhfs 4y ago
  With number 25 on cars per capita in the world and one of the biggest car industries and also obesity rates above average than EU. 'eat healthy and ride your bike' my ass
  - ivan_gammel 4y ago
    >With number 25 on cars per capita in the world For one of the richest countries with one of the biggest car industries being only 25th is a great achievement in mobility. Yes, we could do better, but just compare it to the default country (#7 in car ownership, #2 if you exclude microstates). >obesity rates above average than EU 47th in the global ranking, after Iceland. And USA is right after Oceania. It depends on the perspective.
    - odshoifsdhfs 4y ago
      It isn't about the absolute numbers (even though they aren't 'good' for Germany specially if you remove micro/extreme poor states), is the 'holier than thou' attitude from Germans. It's like an obese person going to the morbidly obese: 'here we don't stuff our mouths with food like you' while having no sense that they are just in a slightly better state than the ones they are chastising.
      - ivan_gammel 4y ago
        I do not understand your argument. We do not use personal cars as often as USA or some other countries, instead relying more on public transportation and bikes - as a result, electricity costs for transportation are quite low for individual households. What's your point? That less than 25% of population do not eat healthy and this is somehow relevant to the conversation?
        odshoifsdhfs 4y ago
        Among the EU, germans drive more km per car than anyone else except Austria (data from 2000, can't find newer). Among the EU, Germans rank 6th on car ownership per capita (2020 data). Going these together, and it shows within the EU, Germans are the on the top of km per capita and not 'we drive less than others' (except maybe the US) Your reply to someone asking about charging their EV(thus need to drive) was that in Germany that isn't a problem because there you eat healthy and cycle, which is a lie (you drive more than most/all of the EU). (as per cycling data, DE is 7th on daily usage of bikes in the EU, but couldn't find any data regarding number of kilometres though)
        ivan_gammel 4y ago
        Data from 2000 is missing two decades of economic growth in Eastern Europe and major EU-funded investments in infrastructure in that region. But let's assume, Germany is still high in the ranks. What does it prove? In Europe the life style from Dublin to Warsaw isn't that different: we often live in an apartment rather than in a house in suburb, we rely on public transportation and have great networks, using a bike is a norm in many cities etc. This all means that electricity budget of an individual household is unlikely to include EV charging at the moment. This will be different from USA, where having individual house and traveling by cars is often the only option. So, what's your point exactly?
morsch 4y ago
Well, infamously, German households tend to generate heat using gas, and not electricity. AC is rare. EVs are rare. Either way, I wanted to know what the actual power draw of those signs is, and since it was given in multiples of a (German) single household, well, that's probably about the number they are working with.
- foepys 4y ago
  > Well, infamously, German households tend to generate heat using gas, and not electricity. This often only applies to heating the rooms. Boiling/heating water for cleaning dishes and bathing is often done via electricity in a boiler.
- seiferteric 4y ago
  Yes which is why the 1300kWh/year is bogus. Gas usage is energy usage. If that is factored in it would be much higher I am sure.
- xxs 4y ago
  Using gas is worse than use geothermal, unless you somehow have gas powered geo thermal pumps (and still worse than solar+geo thermal). So the energy use would be higher.
belter 4y ago
A small family fridge, with a F energy label (so pretty bad), will normally go for a total consumption of 270 kWh a year.
legulere 4y ago
We are using 1000 kWh per year as a couple including hot water. With that we are very low in Germany, but even that is really without much optimization (though we lack some energy-intensive devices like a clothes dryer). Newer devices sold in the EU are relatively energy efficient. A typical fridge-freezer combo uses 150kWh.
- xxs 4y ago
  >A typical fridge-freezer combo uses 150kWh. That would be a small <150L E class fridge, kept at 21C (with an air conditioner during the summer) Fridge efficiency has not increased much in the last decades (LG infamously had an efficient but horrendously unreliable 'linear compressor') - the only part that can increase efficiency is the time(s) it gets opened and how good seals the fridge has, and ambient temperature. Also smaller compressor by design cannot be super efficient. The newer devices part doesn't affect fridges all that much - vacuum cleaners have been limited, lightning requires LEDs (effectively) - which comes w/ its own issue of retrofitting, TVs (also relying on LEDs for backlight or OLED directly), power factor correction (for 75+W) and what not. Direct drive (brushless DC) and low temp washing for washing machines. Yet, there is no recent groundbreaking technology, it's just that the EU changed the efficiency labeling to prevent massive A+++ stuff.
  - morsch 4y ago
    No, these are much larger fridges. https://www.otto.de/p/samsung-kuehl-gefrierkombination-bespoke-rl38a7b5bs9-203-cm-hoch-59-5-cm-breit-1400246809/#variationId=1400255051 https://www.otto.de/p/samsung-kuehl-gefrierkombination-bespo... 273l fridge plus 114l freezer, modeled power draw 134kWh. This is a premium product, a less expensive model (similar capacity) takes 166kWh. https://www.otto.de/p/samsung-kuehl-gefrierkombination-rl36t600csa-193-5-cm-hoch-59-5-cm-breit-4-jahre-garantie-inklusive-1611550146/#variationId=1611550897 https://www.otto.de/p/samsung-kuehl-gefrierkombination-rl36t...
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
madduci 4y ago
As household made of 4 persons, with me permanently in Home-Office, have a consumption of roughly ~2300kWh/year, including heating, in Germany. Waschmaschine and Dryer are almost on a daily basis used (the dryer is used less during hot season) If you tend to buy energetic-efficient devices, your power bill is lower, in front of higher costs for the equipment.
- xxs 4y ago
  There is a quote of the German Federal Statistical Office and the 3+ household is close to 5k.
- serpix 4y ago
  I have major problems believing those numbers. Hot water alone eats up that much per year.
  - fabian2k 4y ago
    Hot water is often heated by gas, not electricity in Germany. Gas usage is counted and billed separately from electricity.
- jansan 4y ago
  ~2300kWh/year, including heating And how do you achieve this? What is your energy source for heating?
  - madduci 4y ago
    I have a local warm station (nahwärme) that heats water locally with electricity and it is connected to a remote heating station (Fernwärme).
ln_00 4y ago
no its not? From my own bills over the last ten years or so, this figure is pretty spot on. And I work from home on a gaming desktop...
lm28469 4y ago
> this is extremely, extremely low. No heating, no cooling, no hot water, no car charging. A fridge alone tends to be over 400KW/h I have a fridge and my water is heated with electricity, I still end up at ~1500kwh per year, while working from home everyday. Electric heating and cooling is extremely inefficient and barely used in Europe.

by xxs 4y ago

ivan_gammel 4y ago

Heating is a separate cost, rarely electric. Cooling - did you know that Germans aren’t big fans of A/C? Hot water - same as heating. Besides, in Germany we don’t say “Car charging”, we say “eat healthy and ride your bike”.

xxs 4y ago
>Heating is a separate cost, rarely electric. Of course, geothermal pumps are still a better option than most.
- ivan_gammel 4y ago
  You can call it geothermal, when it comes from underground pipes ;) District level heating still exists in some areas, also quite often there’s a single oil or gas boiler for a multi-apartment building.
odshoifsdhfs 4y ago
With number 25 on cars per capita in the world and one of the biggest car industries and also obesity rates above average than EU. 'eat healthy and ride your bike' my ass
- ivan_gammel 4y ago
  >With number 25 on cars per capita in the world For one of the richest countries with one of the biggest car industries being only 25th is a great achievement in mobility. Yes, we could do better, but just compare it to the default country (#7 in car ownership, #2 if you exclude microstates). >obesity rates above average than EU 47th in the global ranking, after Iceland. And USA is right after Oceania. It depends on the perspective.
  - odshoifsdhfs 4y ago
    It isn't about the absolute numbers (even though they aren't 'good' for Germany specially if you remove micro/extreme poor states), is the 'holier than thou' attitude from Germans. It's like an obese person going to the morbidly obese: 'here we don't stuff our mouths with food like you' while having no sense that they are just in a slightly better state than the ones they are chastising.
    - ivan_gammel 4y ago
      I do not understand your argument. We do not use personal cars as often as USA or some other countries, instead relying more on public transportation and bikes - as a result, electricity costs for transportation are quite low for individual households. What's your point? That less than 25% of population do not eat healthy and this is somehow relevant to the conversation?
      - odshoifsdhfs 4y ago
        Among the EU, germans drive more km per car than anyone else except Austria (data from 2000, can't find newer). Among the EU, Germans rank 6th on car ownership per capita (2020 data). Going these together, and it shows within the EU, Germans are the on the top of km per capita and not 'we drive less than others' (except maybe the US) Your reply to someone asking about charging their EV(thus need to drive) was that in Germany that isn't a problem because there you eat healthy and cycle, which is a lie (you drive more than most/all of the EU). (as per cycling data, DE is 7th on daily usage of bikes in the EU, but couldn't find any data regarding number of kilometres though)
        ivan_gammel 4y ago
        Data from 2000 is missing two decades of economic growth in Eastern Europe and major EU-funded investments in infrastructure in that region. But let's assume, Germany is still high in the ranks. What does it prove? In Europe the life style from Dublin to Warsaw isn't that different: we often live in an apartment rather than in a house in suburb, we rely on public transportation and have great networks, using a bike is a norm in many cities etc. This all means that electricity budget of an individual household is unlikely to include EV charging at the moment. This will be different from USA, where having individual house and traveling by cars is often the only option. So, what's your point exactly?

morsch 4y ago

Well, infamously, German households tend to generate heat using gas, and not electricity. AC is rare. EVs are rare. Either way, I wanted to know what the actual power draw of those signs is, and since it was given in multiples of a (German) single household, well, that's probably about the number they are working with.

foepys 4y ago
> Well, infamously, German households tend to generate heat using gas, and not electricity. This often only applies to heating the rooms. Boiling/heating water for cleaning dishes and bathing is often done via electricity in a boiler.
seiferteric 4y ago
Yes which is why the 1300kWh/year is bogus. Gas usage is energy usage. If that is factored in it would be much higher I am sure.
xxs 4y ago
Using gas is worse than use geothermal, unless you somehow have gas powered geo thermal pumps (and still worse than solar+geo thermal). So the energy use would be higher.

belter 4y ago

A small family fridge, with a F energy label (so pretty bad), will normally go for a total consumption of 270 kWh a year.

legulere 4y ago

We are using 1000 kWh per year as a couple including hot water. With that we are very low in Germany, but even that is really without much optimization (though we lack some energy-intensive devices like a clothes dryer). Newer devices sold in the EU are relatively energy efficient. A typical fridge-freezer combo uses 150kWh.

xxs 4y ago
>A typical fridge-freezer combo uses 150kWh. That would be a small <150L E class fridge, kept at 21C (with an air conditioner during the summer) Fridge efficiency has not increased much in the last decades (LG infamously had an efficient but horrendously unreliable 'linear compressor') - the only part that can increase efficiency is the time(s) it gets opened and how good seals the fridge has, and ambient temperature. Also smaller compressor by design cannot be super efficient. The newer devices part doesn't affect fridges all that much - vacuum cleaners have been limited, lightning requires LEDs (effectively) - which comes w/ its own issue of retrofitting, TVs (also relying on LEDs for backlight or OLED directly), power factor correction (for 75+W) and what not. Direct drive (brushless DC) and low temp washing for washing machines. Yet, there is no recent groundbreaking technology, it's just that the EU changed the efficiency labeling to prevent massive A+++ stuff.
- morsch 4y ago
  No, these are much larger fridges. https://www.otto.de/p/samsung-kuehl-gefrierkombination-bespoke-rl38a7b5bs9-203-cm-hoch-59-5-cm-breit-1400246809/#variationId=1400255051 https://www.otto.de/p/samsung-kuehl-gefrierkombination-bespo... 273l fridge plus 114l freezer, modeled power draw 134kWh. This is a premium product, a less expensive model (similar capacity) takes 166kWh. https://www.otto.de/p/samsung-kuehl-gefrierkombination-rl36t600csa-193-5-cm-hoch-59-5-cm-breit-4-jahre-garantie-inklusive-1611550146/#variationId=1611550897 https://www.otto.de/p/samsung-kuehl-gefrierkombination-rl36t...
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]

madduci 4y ago

As household made of 4 persons, with me permanently in Home-Office, have a consumption of roughly ~2300kWh/year, including heating, in Germany. Waschmaschine and Dryer are almost on a daily basis used (the dryer is used less during hot season) If you tend to buy energetic-efficient devices, your power bill is lower, in front of higher costs for the equipment.

xxs 4y ago
There is a quote of the German Federal Statistical Office and the 3+ household is close to 5k.
serpix 4y ago
I have major problems believing those numbers. Hot water alone eats up that much per year.
- fabian2k 4y ago
  Hot water is often heated by gas, not electricity in Germany. Gas usage is counted and billed separately from electricity.
jansan 4y ago
~2300kWh/year, including heating And how do you achieve this? What is your energy source for heating?
- madduci 4y ago
  I have a local warm station (nahwärme) that heats water locally with electricity and it is connected to a remote heating station (Fernwärme).

ln_00 4y ago

no its not? From my own bills over the last ten years or so, this figure is pretty spot on. And I work from home on a gaming desktop...

lm28469 4y ago

> this is extremely, extremely low. No heating, no cooling, no hot water, no car charging. A fridge alone tends to be over 400KW/h I have a fridge and my water is heated with electricity, I still end up at ~1500kwh per year, while working from home everyday. Electric heating and cooling is extremely inefficient and barely used in Europe.