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> The bigger problem is that Germany doesn't have any more recent nuclear power plants due to public pressure France hasn't either and they don't have public p

by lispm 4y ago

> The bigger problem is that Germany doesn't have any more recent nuclear power plants due to public pressure France hasn't either and they don't have public pressure against it. The are still trying to build a single one, being a decade late and billions more expensive. > or more recently Fukushima, which really just culturally echoed the existing memories of Chernobyl Currently we think about the nuclear fleet in the Ukraine which is literally under fire from Russia. We are not far away from a new Fukushima, but this time in Europe. https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/both-working-reactors-occupied-ukrainian-nuclear-plant-shut-down-after-nearby-2022-08-25/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/both-working-reactors-o... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/aug/25/zaporizhzhia-nuclear-plant-disconnected-ukraine-grid-russia https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/aug/25/zaporizhzhia-n...

throwaway742 4y ago
Hasn't Zaporizhzhia been under Russian control for a while now? Why would they be shelling themselves? That doesn't even make sense.
- _kbh_ 4y ago
  > Hasn't Zaporizhzhia been under Russian control for a while now? Why would they be shelling themselves? That doesn't even make sense. Because the Russians are trying to disconnect the plant from the Ukrainian grid or cause a disaster they specifically said they could cause a disaster if they wanted to.
ClumsyPilot 4y ago
> Currently we think about the nuclear fleet in the Ukraine which is literally under fire from Russia. The 1938 Yellow River flood (Chinese: 花園口決隄事件, literally "Huayuankou embankment breach incident") was a flood created by the Nationalist Government in central China during the early stage of the Second Sino-Japanese War in an attempt to halt the rapid advance of Japanese forces. One million dead. So by that logic you should be against hydroelectric dams, becauae they've been used in warfare for centuries. One would think the chief problem in that equasion is war, not infrastructure
phtrivier 4y ago
> they don't have public pressure against it There _is_ public pressure against nuclear, but it's at 50/50 vs support for nuclear. It has become a mostly partisan topic. > We are not far away from a new Fukushima, but this time in Europe. Except we technically _already_ had "Fukushima in Europe" 40 years ago, and for most people, life just went on. I agree that if anything goes bad a the Ukrainian plant (FSM forbids), the politicians who have been pro-nuclear in the past few years will have a hard time keeping face, and the sentiments would change, and the experts would spent some unconfortable interviews. However, I can not blame government for being even more scared at Union-wide blackouts than at a local incident at a plant. The latter is horrible, and puts you at the mercy of winds, but _has been managed in the past_. The former gives me worst nightmares (than the other scenario that also gives me nightmares.) Let's all remember it made _sense_ to live in Pompei in 79.
- lispm 4y ago
  > but it's at 50/50 vs support for nuclear where is the pressure in France against nuclear? I can remember civil war like situations at construction sites in Germany years ago. A political movement that spawned a new party which now is, again, in a ruling coalition.
  - phtrivier 4y ago
    In the French version of the same party (EELV), as well as in at least one of its main "coalition" partner (LFI). In the left-wing press in general (Liberation, Le Monde and Le Canard Enchaîné are _patently_ antinuke). In the minds of french people, also, who are very ambivalent about the topic (as measured by... The nuclear industry itself [1]) In regular demonstrations against the Bure waste disposal project, and In general snarkiness about the nuclear plants producing exactly as much current during maintenance as solar panels during the night. Now, to be fair, this split is more 30% against, 30% for, and 30 % "does not care and is happy to have relatively cheap electricity and no major incident for the last 60 years". The side that is mostly against nuclear is also very good at _not_ winning elections. Far right could very much have decided to go antinuke too, but for some reason they decided being anti wind was a better bet. The rest of the country is in this weird middle stage were it's not popular to be pro nuke if you want to score with girls at parties, but you'll kinda be anyway. [1] https://www.bva-group.com/sondages/francais-nucleaire-sondage-bva-orano/ https://www.bva-group.com/sondages/francais-nucleaire-sondag...
fuoqi 4y ago
>Currently we think about the nuclear fleet in the Ukraine which is literally under fire from Russia. It's hilarious how the Western politicians and mass media seriously blame Russia for shelling a nuclear plant which it controls for a number of months. And a lot of people either blindly trust this narrative, or intentionally spread misinformation with the sole goal to demonize Russia as much as possible. It reminds me how Donetsk rebels were blamed for shelling of civilians in territories which they control. It clearly shows how far we are in the post-truth world. Even a tiny bit of critical thinking is enough to understand who truly does the shelling, but titles like "Ukrainian Army shells a nuclear plant" are too inconvenient for the current political climate. As far as I know, the goal of shelling (which for the time being does not target the reactors or the spent fuel storage) is to discourage Russia from disconnecting the Zaporizhzhia nuclear plant from the Ukrainian grid and connect it with the Russian grid instead.
- _kbh_ 4y ago
  > And a lot of people either blindly trust this narrative, or intentionally spread misinformation with the sole goal to demonize Russia as much as possible. No one needs to demonise a country that commits genocide and has its military rape children, the Russians are plenty good at demonising themselves. > As far as I know, the goal of shelling (which for the time being does not target the reactors or the spent fuel storage) is to discourage Russia from disconnecting the Zaporizhzhia nuclear plant from the Ukrainian grid and connect it with the Russian grid instead. The goal of the shelling _is_ to disconnect the power plant, the Russians are shelling the plant to try and cause issues with the connection to the Ukrainian grid which they successfully did in the past couple days.
  - gdy 4y ago
    "and has its military rape children" Yeah, right. The woman spreading these accounts got finally fired. "... also accuses her [Lyudmyla Denisova] of having focused too much on media work, and on describing sexually motivated crimes in gratuitous detail as well as the raping of children in occupied territories. However, some of these accounts, he said, had not been verified, which had harmed Ukraine's reputation and distracted media attention from other, proven crimes and problems." [0] [0] https://www.dw.com/en/why-ukraines-human-rights-chief-lyudmyla-denisova-was-dismissed/a-62017920 https://www.dw.com/en/why-ukraines-human-rights-chief-lyudmy...

by lispm 4y ago

throwaway742 4y ago

Hasn't Zaporizhzhia been under Russian control for a while now? Why would they be shelling themselves? That doesn't even make sense.

_kbh_ 4y ago
> Hasn't Zaporizhzhia been under Russian control for a while now? Why would they be shelling themselves? That doesn't even make sense. Because the Russians are trying to disconnect the plant from the Ukrainian grid or cause a disaster they specifically said they could cause a disaster if they wanted to.

ClumsyPilot 4y ago

> Currently we think about the nuclear fleet in the Ukraine which is literally under fire from Russia. The 1938 Yellow River flood (Chinese: 花園口決隄事件, literally "Huayuankou embankment breach incident") was a flood created by the Nationalist Government in central China during the early stage of the Second Sino-Japanese War in an attempt to halt the rapid advance of Japanese forces. One million dead. So by that logic you should be against hydroelectric dams, becauae they've been used in warfare for centuries. One would think the chief problem in that equasion is war, not infrastructure

phtrivier 4y ago

> they don't have public pressure against it There _is_ public pressure against nuclear, but it's at 50/50 vs support for nuclear. It has become a mostly partisan topic. > We are not far away from a new Fukushima, but this time in Europe. Except we technically _already_ had "Fukushima in Europe" 40 years ago, and for most people, life just went on. I agree that if anything goes bad a the Ukrainian plant (FSM forbids), the politicians who have been pro-nuclear in the past few years will have a hard time keeping face, and the sentiments would change, and the experts would spent some unconfortable interviews. However, I can not blame government for being even more scared at Union-wide blackouts than at a local incident at a plant. The latter is horrible, and puts you at the mercy of winds, but _has been managed in the past_. The former gives me worst nightmares (than the other scenario that also gives me nightmares.) Let's all remember it made _sense_ to live in Pompei in 79.

lispm 4y ago
> but it's at 50/50 vs support for nuclear where is the pressure in France against nuclear? I can remember civil war like situations at construction sites in Germany years ago. A political movement that spawned a new party which now is, again, in a ruling coalition.
- phtrivier 4y ago
  In the French version of the same party (EELV), as well as in at least one of its main "coalition" partner (LFI). In the left-wing press in general (Liberation, Le Monde and Le Canard Enchaîné are _patently_ antinuke). In the minds of french people, also, who are very ambivalent about the topic (as measured by... The nuclear industry itself [1]) In regular demonstrations against the Bure waste disposal project, and In general snarkiness about the nuclear plants producing exactly as much current during maintenance as solar panels during the night. Now, to be fair, this split is more 30% against, 30% for, and 30 % "does not care and is happy to have relatively cheap electricity and no major incident for the last 60 years". The side that is mostly against nuclear is also very good at _not_ winning elections. Far right could very much have decided to go antinuke too, but for some reason they decided being anti wind was a better bet. The rest of the country is in this weird middle stage were it's not popular to be pro nuke if you want to score with girls at parties, but you'll kinda be anyway. [1] https://www.bva-group.com/sondages/francais-nucleaire-sondage-bva-orano/ https://www.bva-group.com/sondages/francais-nucleaire-sondag...

fuoqi 4y ago

>Currently we think about the nuclear fleet in the Ukraine which is literally under fire from Russia. It's hilarious how the Western politicians and mass media seriously blame Russia for shelling a nuclear plant which it controls for a number of months. And a lot of people either blindly trust this narrative, or intentionally spread misinformation with the sole goal to demonize Russia as much as possible. It reminds me how Donetsk rebels were blamed for shelling of civilians in territories which they control. It clearly shows how far we are in the post-truth world. Even a tiny bit of critical thinking is enough to understand who truly does the shelling, but titles like "Ukrainian Army shells a nuclear plant" are too inconvenient for the current political climate. As far as I know, the goal of shelling (which for the time being does not target the reactors or the spent fuel storage) is to discourage Russia from disconnecting the Zaporizhzhia nuclear plant from the Ukrainian grid and connect it with the Russian grid instead.

_kbh_ 4y ago
> And a lot of people either blindly trust this narrative, or intentionally spread misinformation with the sole goal to demonize Russia as much as possible. No one needs to demonise a country that commits genocide and has its military rape children, the Russians are plenty good at demonising themselves. > As far as I know, the goal of shelling (which for the time being does not target the reactors or the spent fuel storage) is to discourage Russia from disconnecting the Zaporizhzhia nuclear plant from the Ukrainian grid and connect it with the Russian grid instead. The goal of the shelling _is_ to disconnect the power plant, the Russians are shelling the plant to try and cause issues with the connection to the Ukrainian grid which they successfully did in the past couple days.
- gdy 4y ago
  "and has its military rape children" Yeah, right. The woman spreading these accounts got finally fired. "... also accuses her [Lyudmyla Denisova] of having focused too much on media work, and on describing sexually motivated crimes in gratuitous detail as well as the raping of children in occupied territories. However, some of these accounts, he said, had not been verified, which had harmed Ukraine's reputation and distracted media attention from other, proven crimes and problems." [0] [0] https://www.dw.com/en/why-ukraines-human-rights-chief-lyudmyla-denisova-was-dismissed/a-62017920 https://www.dw.com/en/why-ukraines-human-rights-chief-lyudmy...