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1. That's not a use-case for holochain. 2. I mean yeah, I don't really think that's a good thing. I think there's a whole world of middle ground between "traci

by Nursie 4y ago

1. That's not a use-case for holochain. 2. I mean yeah, I don't really think that's a good thing. I think there's a whole world of middle ground between "tracing everybody's transactions in the open all the time" and "complete, mathematical privacy forever". Personally I think things should be discoverable with an appropriate warrant, for example. I also don't consider freedom of speech and financial privacy to be equivalent, "criminals" are only a small part of the problem there. Financial privacy in the way proponents seem to want allows everything from total tax evasion to the rich outright buying politicians. However much you think lobbying is bad, and political funding is bad, it could only make it far, far worse.

rapnie 4y ago
I know about the hREA [0] project, that is itself based on Valueflows [1] specification. [0] https://hrea.io/ https://hrea.io/ [1] https://valueflo.ws https://valueflo.ws
- Nursie 4y ago
  Ah man, cryptocurrency meets the semantic web. Just kill me now.
  - rapnie 4y ago
    I know Valueflows from the Bonfire [0] implementation for the Fediverse. Recently learned about this other impl. [0] https://bonfirenetworks.org https://bonfirenetworks.org
    - Nursie 4y ago
      OK, but now we're talking about very esoteric systems to set up codified economic activities and interrelations as an extension/plugin to a niche, federated social media platform ... it doesn't seem that interesting to me, or any less buzzword-laden.
irusensei 4y ago
> Personally I think things should be discoverable with an appropriate warrant, for example. That sounds like the opinion of someone who never experienced living under an authoritarian government.
- Nursie 4y ago
  I would wager that neither have most of the Americans and Europeans who seem to be behind this stuff. In fact it seems to have been authoritarian governments who stand to gain most from such systems, for instance North Korea who were using tornado cash. Further, systems such as these that enable hiding of funds and flows of money are also perfect for abusive, exploitative dictators and oligarchs who want to obscure the source of money they've extracted from their countries to make themselves rich in the west while their people are crushed in poverty. But sure, it's me not seeing the big picture.
  - irusensei 4y ago
    > But sure, its me not seeing the big picture I would say yes that’s absolutely correct considering you are hyper-focused on negative reports and oblivious to situations where such methods aided activists against their tyrannical governments and that includes the plight of Wikileaks against crimes committed by western governments. https://qz.com/africa/1922466/how-bitcoin-powered-nigerias-endsars-protests/ https://qz.com/africa/1922466/how-bitcoin-powered-nigerias-e... https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2021/12/22/meet-the-ngo-turning-to-cryptocurrencies-to-help-desperate-belarusians https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2021/12/22/meet-the-ngo-t... Vitalik used Tornado Cash to donate to Ukraine to protect the identity of the receiver https://twitter.com/vitalikbuterin/status/1556925602233569280 https://twitter.com/vitalikbuterin/status/155692560223356928... EU and NA are not exempt of exerting tyranny through financial systems: https://www.forbes.com/sites/rogerhuang/2019/04/26/how-bitcoin-and-wikileaks-saved-each-other/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/rogerhuang/2019/04/26/how-bitco...
    - Nursie 4y ago
      Except I'm not hyper-focused on negative reports. I haven't made the claim that only criminals use it. Other than the instance with Vitalik, and I don't consider him anything of a thought leader so much as some sort of idiot savant, there is no mention of mixers there. And regardless - I don't think the solution is either a panopticon or absolute financial privacy, I think we need to have a mature discussion about this as a society (or set of societies) rather than throwing our toys out of the pram when something utterly predictable like Tornado Cash being sanctioned for money-laundering happens.

by Nursie 4y ago

rapnie 4y ago

I know about the hREA [0] project, that is itself based on Valueflows [1] specification. [0] https://hrea.io/ https://hrea.io/ [1] https://valueflo.ws https://valueflo.ws

Nursie 4y ago
Ah man, cryptocurrency meets the semantic web. Just kill me now.
- rapnie 4y ago
  I know Valueflows from the Bonfire [0] implementation for the Fediverse. Recently learned about this other impl. [0] https://bonfirenetworks.org https://bonfirenetworks.org
  - Nursie 4y ago
    OK, but now we're talking about very esoteric systems to set up codified economic activities and interrelations as an extension/plugin to a niche, federated social media platform ... it doesn't seem that interesting to me, or any less buzzword-laden.

irusensei 4y ago

> Personally I think things should be discoverable with an appropriate warrant, for example. That sounds like the opinion of someone who never experienced living under an authoritarian government.

Nursie 4y ago
I would wager that neither have most of the Americans and Europeans who seem to be behind this stuff. In fact it seems to have been authoritarian governments who stand to gain most from such systems, for instance North Korea who were using tornado cash. Further, systems such as these that enable hiding of funds and flows of money are also perfect for abusive, exploitative dictators and oligarchs who want to obscure the source of money they've extracted from their countries to make themselves rich in the west while their people are crushed in poverty. But sure, it's me not seeing the big picture.
- irusensei 4y ago
  > But sure, its me not seeing the big picture I would say yes that’s absolutely correct considering you are hyper-focused on negative reports and oblivious to situations where such methods aided activists against their tyrannical governments and that includes the plight of Wikileaks against crimes committed by western governments. https://qz.com/africa/1922466/how-bitcoin-powered-nigerias-endsars-protests/ https://qz.com/africa/1922466/how-bitcoin-powered-nigerias-e... https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2021/12/22/meet-the-ngo-turning-to-cryptocurrencies-to-help-desperate-belarusians https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2021/12/22/meet-the-ngo-t... Vitalik used Tornado Cash to donate to Ukraine to protect the identity of the receiver https://twitter.com/vitalikbuterin/status/1556925602233569280 https://twitter.com/vitalikbuterin/status/155692560223356928... EU and NA are not exempt of exerting tyranny through financial systems: https://www.forbes.com/sites/rogerhuang/2019/04/26/how-bitcoin-and-wikileaks-saved-each-other/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/rogerhuang/2019/04/26/how-bitco...
  - Nursie 4y ago
    Except I'm not hyper-focused on negative reports. I haven't made the claim that only criminals use it. Other than the instance with Vitalik, and I don't consider him anything of a thought leader so much as some sort of idiot savant, there is no mention of mixers there. And regardless - I don't think the solution is either a panopticon or absolute financial privacy, I think we need to have a mature discussion about this as a society (or set of societies) rather than throwing our toys out of the pram when something utterly predictable like Tornado Cash being sanctioned for money-laundering happens.