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One actual use case I've seen is how IPFS is enabling websites like Tornado Cash to evade censorship (and yeah I know Tornado Cash is used by criminals but so i

One actual use case I've seen is how IPFS is enabling websites like Tornado Cash to evade censorship (and yeah I know Tornado Cash is used by criminals but so is every privacy service in existence, and there are other ways to catch criminals besides tracing everybody's transactions)

Nursie 4y ago
1. That's not a use-case for holochain. 2. I mean yeah, I don't really think that's a good thing. I think there's a whole world of middle ground between "tracing everybody's transactions in the open all the time" and "complete, mathematical privacy forever". Personally I think things should be discoverable with an appropriate warrant, for example. I also don't consider freedom of speech and financial privacy to be equivalent, "criminals" are only a small part of the problem there. Financial privacy in the way proponents seem to want allows everything from total tax evasion to the rich outright buying politicians. However much you think lobbying is bad, and political funding is bad, it could only make it far, far worse.
- rapnie 4y ago
  I know about the hREA [0] project, that is itself based on Valueflows [1] specification. [0] https://hrea.io/ https://hrea.io/ [1] https://valueflo.ws https://valueflo.ws
  - Nursie 4y ago
    Ah man, cryptocurrency meets the semantic web. Just kill me now.
    - rapnie 4y ago
      I know Valueflows from the Bonfire [0] implementation for the Fediverse. Recently learned about this other impl. [0] https://bonfirenetworks.org https://bonfirenetworks.org
      - Nursie 4y ago
        OK, but now we're talking about very esoteric systems to set up codified economic activities and interrelations as an extension/plugin to a niche, federated social media platform ... it doesn't seem that interesting to me, or any less buzzword-laden.
- irusensei 4y ago
  > Personally I think things should be discoverable with an appropriate warrant, for example. That sounds like the opinion of someone who never experienced living under an authoritarian government.
  - Nursie 4y ago
    I would wager that neither have most of the Americans and Europeans who seem to be behind this stuff. In fact it seems to have been authoritarian governments who stand to gain most from such systems, for instance North Korea who were using tornado cash. Further, systems such as these that enable hiding of funds and flows of money are also perfect for abusive, exploitative dictators and oligarchs who want to obscure the source of money they've extracted from their countries to make themselves rich in the west while their people are crushed in poverty. But sure, it's me not seeing the big picture.
    - irusensei 4y ago
      > But sure, its me not seeing the big picture I would say yes that’s absolutely correct considering you are hyper-focused on negative reports and oblivious to situations where such methods aided activists against their tyrannical governments and that includes the plight of Wikileaks against crimes committed by western governments. https://qz.com/africa/1922466/how-bitcoin-powered-nigerias-endsars-protests/ https://qz.com/africa/1922466/how-bitcoin-powered-nigerias-e... https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2021/12/22/meet-the-ngo-turning-to-cryptocurrencies-to-help-desperate-belarusians https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2021/12/22/meet-the-ngo-t... Vitalik used Tornado Cash to donate to Ukraine to protect the identity of the receiver https://twitter.com/vitalikbuterin/status/1556925602233569280 https://twitter.com/vitalikbuterin/status/155692560223356928... EU and NA are not exempt of exerting tyranny through financial systems: https://www.forbes.com/sites/rogerhuang/2019/04/26/how-bitcoin-and-wikileaks-saved-each-other/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/rogerhuang/2019/04/26/how-bitco...
      - Nursie 4y ago
        Except I'm not hyper-focused on negative reports. I haven't made the claim that only criminals use it. Other than the instance with Vitalik, and I don't consider him anything of a thought leader so much as some sort of idiot savant, there is no mention of mixers there. And regardless - I don't think the solution is either a panopticon or absolute financial privacy, I think we need to have a mature discussion about this as a society (or set of societies) rather than throwing our toys out of the pram when something utterly predictable like Tornado Cash being sanctioned for money-laundering happens.
phatfish 4y ago
Privacy of communication is fine. Anonymously sending funds globally is different, the criminal uses vastly outweigh any legitimate use. If privacy is really needed use cash, the difficulty of having to move large quantities of cash around physically is a good limiting factor. If you are worried about banks knowing your transaction history most shops still accept cash.
- rglullis 4y ago
  > If privacy is really needed Privacy is a right, and you don't get to be the judge of when privacy is "needed" or how I exercise it.
  - Nursie 4y ago
    I mean, it's not though, as things stand right now, is it? Absolute/mathematical financial privacy in particular we're talking about. Maybe you'd like it to be, but right now it's not the case, basically anywhere, no matter how righteously you assert it. And you're a bit of an outlier if you think it should be. TBH, AFAICT, most folks think things like dark money, tax evasion, terrorist funding, proceeds of crime, proceeds of dictatorship and oligarchy, political bribes etc etc should be tracked and intercepted, so you're going to have an uphill battle trying to establish it as any sort of right. And as we've seen with tornado-cash - if you deliberately build systems that enforce it, working around the law by making transfers that can't be traced, you don't magically solve the 'problem' of the law applying to you. In fact you probably create more.
    - rglullis 4y ago
      > it's not though Yes, yes it is. It might be that you are okay with that being violated, but it does not mean that it stops being a right, and it does not mean that people should accept losing it away. > Absolute/mathematical financial privacy in particular we're talking about. If you believe that, feel free to stop using WhatsApp or whatever e2e encrypted system you are using right now. > dark money, tax evasion, terrorist funding, proceeds of crime should be tracked Can governments make their best effort to track all of that? Sure. Does that mean that law-abiding citizens should lose their rights over it? Absolutely not! Honestly, citizens like you that want to normalize State Surveillance concern me more than any "darknet hacker" ever will. Didn't you learn anything with the Patriot Act? > working around the law by making transfers that can't be traced No. No one making a transaction using tornado cash is "working around the law". Using tornado cash (by itself) is not a crime. Making payments online without being worried that people can access your whole transaction history is crucial for it to be a viable alternative. Please stop with this absurd FUD and stop associating privacy with "something only for the interest of malicious actors".

Nursie 4y ago

1. That's not a use-case for holochain. 2. I mean yeah, I don't really think that's a good thing. I think there's a whole world of middle ground between "tracing everybody's transactions in the open all the time" and "complete, mathematical privacy forever". Personally I think things should be discoverable with an appropriate warrant, for example. I also don't consider freedom of speech and financial privacy to be equivalent, "criminals" are only a small part of the problem there. Financial privacy in the way proponents seem to want allows everything from total tax evasion to the rich outright buying politicians. However much you think lobbying is bad, and political funding is bad, it could only make it far, far worse.

rapnie 4y ago
I know about the hREA [0] project, that is itself based on Valueflows [1] specification. [0] https://hrea.io/ https://hrea.io/ [1] https://valueflo.ws https://valueflo.ws
- Nursie 4y ago
  Ah man, cryptocurrency meets the semantic web. Just kill me now.
  - rapnie 4y ago
    I know Valueflows from the Bonfire [0] implementation for the Fediverse. Recently learned about this other impl. [0] https://bonfirenetworks.org https://bonfirenetworks.org
    - Nursie 4y ago
      OK, but now we're talking about very esoteric systems to set up codified economic activities and interrelations as an extension/plugin to a niche, federated social media platform ... it doesn't seem that interesting to me, or any less buzzword-laden.
irusensei 4y ago
> Personally I think things should be discoverable with an appropriate warrant, for example. That sounds like the opinion of someone who never experienced living under an authoritarian government.
- Nursie 4y ago
  I would wager that neither have most of the Americans and Europeans who seem to be behind this stuff. In fact it seems to have been authoritarian governments who stand to gain most from such systems, for instance North Korea who were using tornado cash. Further, systems such as these that enable hiding of funds and flows of money are also perfect for abusive, exploitative dictators and oligarchs who want to obscure the source of money they've extracted from their countries to make themselves rich in the west while their people are crushed in poverty. But sure, it's me not seeing the big picture.
  - irusensei 4y ago
    > But sure, its me not seeing the big picture I would say yes that’s absolutely correct considering you are hyper-focused on negative reports and oblivious to situations where such methods aided activists against their tyrannical governments and that includes the plight of Wikileaks against crimes committed by western governments. https://qz.com/africa/1922466/how-bitcoin-powered-nigerias-endsars-protests/ https://qz.com/africa/1922466/how-bitcoin-powered-nigerias-e... https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2021/12/22/meet-the-ngo-turning-to-cryptocurrencies-to-help-desperate-belarusians https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2021/12/22/meet-the-ngo-t... Vitalik used Tornado Cash to donate to Ukraine to protect the identity of the receiver https://twitter.com/vitalikbuterin/status/1556925602233569280 https://twitter.com/vitalikbuterin/status/155692560223356928... EU and NA are not exempt of exerting tyranny through financial systems: https://www.forbes.com/sites/rogerhuang/2019/04/26/how-bitcoin-and-wikileaks-saved-each-other/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/rogerhuang/2019/04/26/how-bitco...
    - Nursie 4y ago
      Except I'm not hyper-focused on negative reports. I haven't made the claim that only criminals use it. Other than the instance with Vitalik, and I don't consider him anything of a thought leader so much as some sort of idiot savant, there is no mention of mixers there. And regardless - I don't think the solution is either a panopticon or absolute financial privacy, I think we need to have a mature discussion about this as a society (or set of societies) rather than throwing our toys out of the pram when something utterly predictable like Tornado Cash being sanctioned for money-laundering happens.

phatfish 4y ago

Privacy of communication is fine. Anonymously sending funds globally is different, the criminal uses vastly outweigh any legitimate use. If privacy is really needed use cash, the difficulty of having to move large quantities of cash around physically is a good limiting factor. If you are worried about banks knowing your transaction history most shops still accept cash.

rglullis 4y ago
> If privacy is really needed Privacy is a right, and you don't get to be the judge of when privacy is "needed" or how I exercise it.
- Nursie 4y ago
  I mean, it's not though, as things stand right now, is it? Absolute/mathematical financial privacy in particular we're talking about. Maybe you'd like it to be, but right now it's not the case, basically anywhere, no matter how righteously you assert it. And you're a bit of an outlier if you think it should be. TBH, AFAICT, most folks think things like dark money, tax evasion, terrorist funding, proceeds of crime, proceeds of dictatorship and oligarchy, political bribes etc etc should be tracked and intercepted, so you're going to have an uphill battle trying to establish it as any sort of right. And as we've seen with tornado-cash - if you deliberately build systems that enforce it, working around the law by making transfers that can't be traced, you don't magically solve the 'problem' of the law applying to you. In fact you probably create more.
  - rglullis 4y ago
    > it's not though Yes, yes it is. It might be that you are okay with that being violated, but it does not mean that it stops being a right, and it does not mean that people should accept losing it away. > Absolute/mathematical financial privacy in particular we're talking about. If you believe that, feel free to stop using WhatsApp or whatever e2e encrypted system you are using right now. > dark money, tax evasion, terrorist funding, proceeds of crime should be tracked Can governments make their best effort to track all of that? Sure. Does that mean that law-abiding citizens should lose their rights over it? Absolutely not! Honestly, citizens like you that want to normalize State Surveillance concern me more than any "darknet hacker" ever will. Didn't you learn anything with the Patriot Act? > working around the law by making transfers that can't be traced No. No one making a transaction using tornado cash is "working around the law". Using tornado cash (by itself) is not a crime. Making payments online without being worried that people can access your whole transaction history is crucial for it to be a viable alternative. Please stop with this absurd FUD and stop associating privacy with "something only for the interest of malicious actors".