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IQ research is the one area in social sciences that does not suffer from reproducibility crisis. You're clearly not against it because of reproducibility; you a

IQ research is the one area in social sciences that does not suffer from reproducibility crisis. You're clearly not against it because of reproducibility; you are against it because it goes against your ideological worldview. > Second, research results in population group differences are social poison. They are memetic viruses that fuel violent extremism. We had a full summer of violent riots because of the "Black Lives Matter" ideology. Are we going to ban research that studies police treatment of different races too?

irrational 4y ago
- istinetz 4y ago
  I have seen several videos of entirely black crowds looting stores. How is this Trump's fault? How is this "pure white supremacy"?
  - onion2k 4y ago
    How is this "pure white supremacy"? That's an easy one. America has had a couple of centuries of systemic racism keeping majority-black communities poor, uneducated, and not particularly fearful of prison (relative to majority-white communities). When you combine that poverty with an easy opportunity to loot something valuable in a situation where there's a perception of not being caught due to the chaos, people will loot things. There will have been poor white people in the videos you watched, but your biases mean you focused on the black people instead. That's not a suggestion that you're racist. It's simply that you've grown up in a society where white people are literally considered superior. The white supremacy is all around you. You don't notice it in the same way you don't notice the air you breathe. When someone points it out though, you should probably listen at least, even if you choose not to act. Also, it's not Trump's fault. It goes back far further than Trump. He's simply a clever grifter who found a way to capitalize on it. His family is the better part of $3bn richer since his presidency...
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - kkfdkerpoe 4y ago
      Guess what keeps those black neighbourhoods poor? Lack of progressive taxation, which also impacts poor people of all other colors as well, including whites. Many Americans are obsessed with race, but really the main source of inequality is money these days. Fix the money issue and all poor people will benefit, including minorities. Take more money from the rich and use it to fund public services, education regardless of people's skin color. Now, obviously black people are poor because of historical actions which might count as "white supremacy" (like trans-atlantic slave trade), but you don't fix the issue by blaming white people, you fix it by taxing the rich.
      - blueflow 4y ago
        The US media scream racism and BLM all day so people blame whites, not politicians for their poverty.
      - ZeroGravitas 4y ago
        If you look at the historical record, the people working to stop progressive taxation were openly racist, and used that to get poor white people to support the policies. So, white supremacy lead directly to lots of poor white people getting hurt, just like the civil war killed a whole bunch of poor white people. https://www.americanbar.org/groups/crsj/publications/human_rights_magazine_home/rbgs-impact-on-civil-rights/blacktaxpayersmatter/ https://www.americanbar.org/groups/crsj/publications/human_r... > In this “systemic racism” frame and with an understanding of the pre-existing condition of racial wealth disparities, the “anti-tax” shift of the U.S. tax system from more to less progressive comes into focus as a current manifestation of relentless racism. Beginning in the early 1980s, our tax systems have become less progressive. “Anti-tax” fervor took root with caps on property taxes in California in 1978 and the Reagan tax cuts in the early 1980s, and it has steadily flourished. Congress has decreased wealth taxes along with top marginal income tax rates. State and local governments have reduced reliance on income and property taxes, replacing them with increased sales and other consumption taxes. > The “anti-tax” movement and economic inequality go hand in hand. Leading economists identify decreased progressivity in the tax system as an important cause of rising economic inequality. High-income earners who are taxed at lower rates are able to add more to their wealth every year compared to low-income earners. “Anti-tax,” it turns out, is less about taking the burden of taxation off of everyone and more about shifting that burden away from wealthy taxpayers who can, for example, choose to domicile in states that raise revenues through (regressive) sales rather than (progressive) income taxes.
  - ZeroGravitas 4y ago
    There was an actual "white supremacist" that smashed windows and spray painted "free shit for everyone zone" on the side of a building while the crowd called him out as an agent provocateur, so... https://minnesotareformer.com/2021/06/02/whats-up-with-umbrella-man/ https://minnesotareformer.com/2021/06/02/whats-up-with-umbre... > The man whose cell phone records were sought is said to be a member of the Hells Angels motorcycle gang and “known associate” of the Aryan Cowboys white supremacist prison gang based in Minnesota and Kentucky. He was photographed with a group wearing Aryan Cowboy leather vests in Stillwater harassing a Muslim woman on June 27 of last year, according to the search warrant. > The search warrant sought the suspect’s cell phone activity and cell tower “pings” on the day of the AutoZone incident. The man, who has a lengthy criminal history, did not return a phone call seeking comment.
- DocTomoe 4y ago
  Wikipedia says violence broke out a day after the George Floyd incident [1]: > After the main protest group disbanded on the night of May 26, a much smaller group, numbering in the hundreds, spray-painted the building, threw rocks and bottles, broke a window at the station, and vandalized a squad car. A skirmish soon broke out between the vandals and protesters trying to stop them. At around 8 p.m., police fired tear gas and rubber bullets at demonstrators, some of whom had thrown water bottles at police officers. That was long before Trump was taking any action. Let's not give a bad politician credit he doesn't deserve. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Floyd_protests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Floyd_protests
  - chaps 4y ago
    Not so fun fact: on May 29th in Chicago, the address with the highest number of arrests by far was at Trump tower, against peaceful protesters. Then the police department lied about the number of arrests that happened for looting, saying that there were more arrests for looting than protesters. If you're looking to build a better understanding of what happened, you might want to reconsider using wikipedia as your source and try to find local news that takes a critical look at policing. Also... "water bottles"? Come on. https://www.chicagoreporter.com/chicago-police-arrested-more-people-for-protesting-than-for-looting-in-early-days-of-unrest-contradicting-original-claims/ https://www.chicagoreporter.com/chicago-police-arrested-more...
    - DocTomoe 4y ago
      > on May 29th in Chicago, the address with the highest number of arrests by far was at Trump tower, against peaceful protesters. I am not surprised that the one place in town which has a strong connection to a sitting US president who is considered racist by protesters is a protest, and thus an arrest hotspot. I see no proof that the arrest was made against peaceful protesters. Other sources, by the way, speak of 108 arrests, mostly related to property damage and violence [1] > If you're looking to build a better understanding of what happened, you might want to reconsider using wikipedia as your source and try to find local news that takes a critical look at policing. I prefer a source that at least tries to be unbiased to a source that makes it very clear it doesn't care about unbiased at all. The source you quote makes claims, but does not show data to back them up. Their analysis - and they admit that themselves - is based on incomplete data. [1] https://chicago.suntimes.com/2020/5/30/21275417/loop-protesters-arrested-clashes-chicago-police-george-floyd-state-harrison https://chicago.suntimes.com/2020/5/30/21275417/loop-protest...
barry-cotter 4y ago
> IQ research is the one area in social sciences that does not suffer from reproducibility crisis. This isn’t true. Areas like psychophysics have similar extremely high reliability. Economics did quite well compared to political science and sociology. Social psychology and personality psychology were and are unusually bad.
bobkazamakis 4y ago
aaplok 4y ago
> You're clearly not against it because of reproducibility; you are against it because it goes against your ideological worldview. Please avoid ad hominem arguments like this. They are unlikely to convince anyone, and on a topic as sensitive as this might be interpreted as personal attacks. Your comment would have been more useful if you had restricted yourself to responding to GP's argument that the data is too noisy and confounded to draw serious conclusions.
- dymk 4y ago
  That's not what an ad-hom attack is. An ad-hom would be insulting the poster they were replying to. This is at worst making an incorrect guess at their ideology, but more likely than not, it's a correct guess.
  - aaplok 4y ago
    Hmm, no. Quoting Wikipedia [0], ad-hom "refers to a rhetorical strategy where the speaker attacks the character, motive, or some other attribute of the person making an argument rather than addressing the substance of the argument itself. The most common form of ad hominem is "A makes a claim x, B asserts that A holds a property that is unwelcome, and hence B concludes that argument x is wrong". " The person's ideology is precisely an "attribute of the person making an argument". The sentence I responded to basically states that "A is not making their argument because it's true, but because of A's unwelcome characteristic." This is pretty much textbook ad-hominem. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
davidguetta 4y ago
Serious question why would you need "studies" or "research to know thr police is racist. That will just not help solving the problem
- geoduck14 4y ago
  You mentioned your question is serious. I'm assuming you want a serious answer. For others reading this: please assume positive intent for OP and my self. There is no need for flame wars. Studies are important for police racism because: collecting data on who, when, and why can help us resolve the racism. To be specific, not all police are racist. A study could help identify who is more likely to be racist. Then we decide do we retrain these people or fire them or... something else. Meanwhile, we keep the other police or have them train the racist police.
  - davidguetta 4y ago
    Thanks for actually taking me seriously but I think you missed my point. I understand what's the point of a study. I'm just saying there's probably no real need for a "study" to know which departement or service is racist. It's more a will to act and how that's lacking, not one more study. It's also because acting is not easy : when money is low you get 'not the best people' and they still have to do a hard job against criminals, so there's is also sort of a need to protect them when they make mistakes or when you know they won't change who they are, to still have SOME job done in the meantime. life and people management isn't easy and, i don't think, solved by 'studies'

irrational 4y ago

istinetz 4y ago
I have seen several videos of entirely black crowds looting stores. How is this Trump's fault? How is this "pure white supremacy"?
- onion2k 4y ago
  How is this "pure white supremacy"? That's an easy one. America has had a couple of centuries of systemic racism keeping majority-black communities poor, uneducated, and not particularly fearful of prison (relative to majority-white communities). When you combine that poverty with an easy opportunity to loot something valuable in a situation where there's a perception of not being caught due to the chaos, people will loot things. There will have been poor white people in the videos you watched, but your biases mean you focused on the black people instead. That's not a suggestion that you're racist. It's simply that you've grown up in a society where white people are literally considered superior. The white supremacy is all around you. You don't notice it in the same way you don't notice the air you breathe. When someone points it out though, you should probably listen at least, even if you choose not to act. Also, it's not Trump's fault. It goes back far further than Trump. He's simply a clever grifter who found a way to capitalize on it. His family is the better part of $3bn richer since his presidency...
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - kkfdkerpoe 4y ago
    Guess what keeps those black neighbourhoods poor? Lack of progressive taxation, which also impacts poor people of all other colors as well, including whites. Many Americans are obsessed with race, but really the main source of inequality is money these days. Fix the money issue and all poor people will benefit, including minorities. Take more money from the rich and use it to fund public services, education regardless of people's skin color. Now, obviously black people are poor because of historical actions which might count as "white supremacy" (like trans-atlantic slave trade), but you don't fix the issue by blaming white people, you fix it by taxing the rich.
    - blueflow 4y ago
      The US media scream racism and BLM all day so people blame whites, not politicians for their poverty.
    - ZeroGravitas 4y ago
      If you look at the historical record, the people working to stop progressive taxation were openly racist, and used that to get poor white people to support the policies. So, white supremacy lead directly to lots of poor white people getting hurt, just like the civil war killed a whole bunch of poor white people. https://www.americanbar.org/groups/crsj/publications/human_rights_magazine_home/rbgs-impact-on-civil-rights/blacktaxpayersmatter/ https://www.americanbar.org/groups/crsj/publications/human_r... > In this “systemic racism” frame and with an understanding of the pre-existing condition of racial wealth disparities, the “anti-tax” shift of the U.S. tax system from more to less progressive comes into focus as a current manifestation of relentless racism. Beginning in the early 1980s, our tax systems have become less progressive. “Anti-tax” fervor took root with caps on property taxes in California in 1978 and the Reagan tax cuts in the early 1980s, and it has steadily flourished. Congress has decreased wealth taxes along with top marginal income tax rates. State and local governments have reduced reliance on income and property taxes, replacing them with increased sales and other consumption taxes. > The “anti-tax” movement and economic inequality go hand in hand. Leading economists identify decreased progressivity in the tax system as an important cause of rising economic inequality. High-income earners who are taxed at lower rates are able to add more to their wealth every year compared to low-income earners. “Anti-tax,” it turns out, is less about taking the burden of taxation off of everyone and more about shifting that burden away from wealthy taxpayers who can, for example, choose to domicile in states that raise revenues through (regressive) sales rather than (progressive) income taxes.
- ZeroGravitas 4y ago
  There was an actual "white supremacist" that smashed windows and spray painted "free shit for everyone zone" on the side of a building while the crowd called him out as an agent provocateur, so... https://minnesotareformer.com/2021/06/02/whats-up-with-umbrella-man/ https://minnesotareformer.com/2021/06/02/whats-up-with-umbre... > The man whose cell phone records were sought is said to be a member of the Hells Angels motorcycle gang and “known associate” of the Aryan Cowboys white supremacist prison gang based in Minnesota and Kentucky. He was photographed with a group wearing Aryan Cowboy leather vests in Stillwater harassing a Muslim woman on June 27 of last year, according to the search warrant. > The search warrant sought the suspect’s cell phone activity and cell tower “pings” on the day of the AutoZone incident. The man, who has a lengthy criminal history, did not return a phone call seeking comment.
DocTomoe 4y ago
Wikipedia says violence broke out a day after the George Floyd incident [1]: > After the main protest group disbanded on the night of May 26, a much smaller group, numbering in the hundreds, spray-painted the building, threw rocks and bottles, broke a window at the station, and vandalized a squad car. A skirmish soon broke out between the vandals and protesters trying to stop them. At around 8 p.m., police fired tear gas and rubber bullets at demonstrators, some of whom had thrown water bottles at police officers. That was long before Trump was taking any action. Let's not give a bad politician credit he doesn't deserve. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Floyd_protests https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Floyd_protests
- chaps 4y ago
  Not so fun fact: on May 29th in Chicago, the address with the highest number of arrests by far was at Trump tower, against peaceful protesters. Then the police department lied about the number of arrests that happened for looting, saying that there were more arrests for looting than protesters. If you're looking to build a better understanding of what happened, you might want to reconsider using wikipedia as your source and try to find local news that takes a critical look at policing. Also... "water bottles"? Come on. https://www.chicagoreporter.com/chicago-police-arrested-more-people-for-protesting-than-for-looting-in-early-days-of-unrest-contradicting-original-claims/ https://www.chicagoreporter.com/chicago-police-arrested-more...
  - DocTomoe 4y ago
    > on May 29th in Chicago, the address with the highest number of arrests by far was at Trump tower, against peaceful protesters. I am not surprised that the one place in town which has a strong connection to a sitting US president who is considered racist by protesters is a protest, and thus an arrest hotspot. I see no proof that the arrest was made against peaceful protesters. Other sources, by the way, speak of 108 arrests, mostly related to property damage and violence [1] > If you're looking to build a better understanding of what happened, you might want to reconsider using wikipedia as your source and try to find local news that takes a critical look at policing. I prefer a source that at least tries to be unbiased to a source that makes it very clear it doesn't care about unbiased at all. The source you quote makes claims, but does not show data to back them up. Their analysis - and they admit that themselves - is based on incomplete data. [1] https://chicago.suntimes.com/2020/5/30/21275417/loop-protesters-arrested-clashes-chicago-police-george-floyd-state-harrison https://chicago.suntimes.com/2020/5/30/21275417/loop-protest...

barry-cotter 4y ago

> IQ research is the one area in social sciences that does not suffer from reproducibility crisis. This isn’t true. Areas like psychophysics have similar extremely high reliability. Economics did quite well compared to political science and sociology. Social psychology and personality psychology were and are unusually bad.

bobkazamakis 4y ago

aaplok 4y ago

> You're clearly not against it because of reproducibility; you are against it because it goes against your ideological worldview. Please avoid ad hominem arguments like this. They are unlikely to convince anyone, and on a topic as sensitive as this might be interpreted as personal attacks. Your comment would have been more useful if you had restricted yourself to responding to GP's argument that the data is too noisy and confounded to draw serious conclusions.

dymk 4y ago
That's not what an ad-hom attack is. An ad-hom would be insulting the poster they were replying to. This is at worst making an incorrect guess at their ideology, but more likely than not, it's a correct guess.
- aaplok 4y ago
  Hmm, no. Quoting Wikipedia [0], ad-hom "refers to a rhetorical strategy where the speaker attacks the character, motive, or some other attribute of the person making an argument rather than addressing the substance of the argument itself. The most common form of ad hominem is "A makes a claim x, B asserts that A holds a property that is unwelcome, and hence B concludes that argument x is wrong". " The person's ideology is precisely an "attribute of the person making an argument". The sentence I responded to basically states that "A is not making their argument because it's true, but because of A's unwelcome characteristic." This is pretty much textbook ad-hominem. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

davidguetta 4y ago

Serious question why would you need "studies" or "research to know thr police is racist. That will just not help solving the problem

geoduck14 4y ago
You mentioned your question is serious. I'm assuming you want a serious answer. For others reading this: please assume positive intent for OP and my self. There is no need for flame wars. Studies are important for police racism because: collecting data on who, when, and why can help us resolve the racism. To be specific, not all police are racist. A study could help identify who is more likely to be racist. Then we decide do we retrain these people or fire them or... something else. Meanwhile, we keep the other police or have them train the racist police.
- davidguetta 4y ago
  Thanks for actually taking me seriously but I think you missed my point. I understand what's the point of a study. I'm just saying there's probably no real need for a "study" to know which departement or service is racist. It's more a will to act and how that's lacking, not one more study. It's also because acting is not easy : when money is low you get 'not the best people' and they still have to do a hard job against criminals, so there's is also sort of a need to protect them when they make mistakes or when you know they won't change who they are, to still have SOME job done in the meantime. life and people management isn't easy and, i don't think, solved by 'studies'