4 ms·

Ask HN: Can a pass system work? (movie pass, etc.)

10 points by moomoo11 4y ago

Movie pass failed but I used to think it was cool. Why do pass systems fail, and can they ever work? What are some examples of pass system that work?

bombcar 4y ago
It just needs the cost to service be below the revenue. Moviepass failed because they never got the movie studios onboard. They’re trying to start up again somehow lol (I bet lousy streaming service).
PaulHoule 4y ago
Isn't that how gyms usually work? From Planet Fitness you can buy a black card that gets you into all of the franchises for whatever time you are paid.
mooreds 4y ago
The typical gym is essentially a pass system. Planet Money did a good episode on it: https://www.npr.org/2019/06/12/731987365/episode-590-the-planet-money-workout https://www.npr.org/2019/06/12/731987365/episode-590-the-pla... The goal (if you have an exclusive good, where someone using the good prevents someone else from doig so) is to get folks who will pay the pass rate ("it's a deal") but use it less than the value of the pass.
- saurik 4y ago
  Which (I think: I just read the abstract to try to check) makes the important point that a key property of gyms is that a lot of people buy gym memberships because they think they "should" go to the gym and it feels like they have made some progress in their life if they have a membership even if they never go to the gym; it thereby can feel like you've failed or that you have given up if you cancel your gym membership even if you realize you have never once actually gone. I don't think MoviePass has much hope of working like that, at least for any appreciable number of its users. Most of the other pass systems that work try to get this preferable usage ratio by making it SEEM like a good deal but then having so many restrictions on its usage that you have no real hope of ever using it in a way where it made financial sense (with bonus points if you can make it so hard for users to even figure out they are being screwed that they don't cancel). I guess a question I have with gyms: has anyone tried to make a gym with a "pay by the visit" model?
  - tomjen3 4y ago
    Moviepass didn't work because the only people willing to pay are those who are already spending more than, or close to, the cost of the pass and they know it because they are used to paying each time they go. Plus going to the movies is fun, there is little resistance to it. There is a lot of resistance to going to the gym, even if you feel great once you do go.
barrysteve 4y ago
If it requires zero extra thought and is perfectly reliable, pass systems work. As soon as there's inconveniences or you have to think specifically about where and when you can use it, the advantage fades and you're back to buying individual movie tickets or whatever. Moving customers into exclusive services for pass holders doesn't necessarily make it a benefit in my view. I don't want to reacclimatize to both a pass system and a new experience, just give unfettered access or customization.
sp332 4y ago
Movie pass failed because different theaters charge different prices depending on what the locals will pay to see a movie. Trying to even the prices out geographically meant that people near cheaper movie theaters didn't buy the passes, and people who went to more expensive ones did. They were fighting against market segmentation, which was obviously a failing strategy and I'm surprised they got any investors at all.
duped 4y ago
Moviepass failed because they lost money on every subscriber and didn't get the critical mass to get discounted tickets to cinemas. They took an antagonistic stance towards the major theaters and lost. That said it could have worked if they took a different approach. Businesses like theaters want to fill their seats and will gladly reduce prices if they aren't able to sell at the full ticket price initially. Basically the problem to solve isn't filling up the theater for the midnight release of the next Marvel film, it's filling in those seats for the art house flick in its second week before leaving theaters or packing the house until it leaves. A subscription service that can put butts in chairs could work if it addresses that real market inefficiency. I believe one exists for this purpose on Broadway but I don't think it's an app. The danger is the theater doesn't want to enable scalping. The other giant whole in the live and recorded media landscape is discovery. Customer acquisition costs are enormous for media producers (particularly the poor, local ones that are beloved but teetering on bankruptcy). Basically what I'm saying is the model should be partnership with the venues and not attempts to disrupt them. Here's something I'd pay $20 a month for. Give me two tickets every other weekend to some random show the day before at a theater or cinema. My partner and I will see it. Use whatever tech or business relationship to pick the day before what that is and we'll do it.
- batiudrami 4y ago
  I agree that MoviePass was close to having a workable system. There needs to be some concessions though - maybe something like only unsold seats (so you may not be able to see something on opening weekend) and no seat reservation so the best seats go to full price customers. Plus you need to have studios on board and a different agreed way of paying them to the current proportion of ticket price.
  - toast0 4y ago
    AMC and Regal have similar programs now. The price point isn't as nice (especially it you want to use it areas with higher priced theaters), and you're limited to that chain, and maybe there's other restrictions. My local preferred theater doesn't have a program though, and such a program isn't enough to convince me to drive much farther to get to a theater I don't like as much.
gitgud 4y ago
Season passes for ski resorts are a similar concept. A one-time payment can get you unlimited access to multiple resorts. They've been doing this for decades, so they've proven the concept works.

10 points by moomoo11 4y ago

Movie pass failed but I used to think it was cool. Why do pass systems fail, and can they ever work? What are some examples of pass system that work?

bombcar 4y ago

It just needs the cost to service be below the revenue. Moviepass failed because they never got the movie studios onboard. They’re trying to start up again somehow lol (I bet lousy streaming service).

PaulHoule 4y ago

Isn't that how gyms usually work? From Planet Fitness you can buy a black card that gets you into all of the franchises for whatever time you are paid.

mooreds 4y ago

The typical gym is essentially a pass system. Planet Money did a good episode on it: https://www.npr.org/2019/06/12/731987365/episode-590-the-planet-money-workout https://www.npr.org/2019/06/12/731987365/episode-590-the-pla... The goal (if you have an exclusive good, where someone using the good prevents someone else from doig so) is to get folks who will pay the pass rate ("it's a deal") but use it less than the value of the pass.

saurik 4y ago
Which (I think: I just read the abstract to try to check) makes the important point that a key property of gyms is that a lot of people buy gym memberships because they think they "should" go to the gym and it feels like they have made some progress in their life if they have a membership even if they never go to the gym; it thereby can feel like you've failed or that you have given up if you cancel your gym membership even if you realize you have never once actually gone. I don't think MoviePass has much hope of working like that, at least for any appreciable number of its users. Most of the other pass systems that work try to get this preferable usage ratio by making it SEEM like a good deal but then having so many restrictions on its usage that you have no real hope of ever using it in a way where it made financial sense (with bonus points if you can make it so hard for users to even figure out they are being screwed that they don't cancel). I guess a question I have with gyms: has anyone tried to make a gym with a "pay by the visit" model?
- tomjen3 4y ago
  Moviepass didn't work because the only people willing to pay are those who are already spending more than, or close to, the cost of the pass and they know it because they are used to paying each time they go. Plus going to the movies is fun, there is little resistance to it. There is a lot of resistance to going to the gym, even if you feel great once you do go.

barrysteve 4y ago

If it requires zero extra thought and is perfectly reliable, pass systems work. As soon as there's inconveniences or you have to think specifically about where and when you can use it, the advantage fades and you're back to buying individual movie tickets or whatever. Moving customers into exclusive services for pass holders doesn't necessarily make it a benefit in my view. I don't want to reacclimatize to both a pass system and a new experience, just give unfettered access or customization.

sp332 4y ago

Movie pass failed because different theaters charge different prices depending on what the locals will pay to see a movie. Trying to even the prices out geographically meant that people near cheaper movie theaters didn't buy the passes, and people who went to more expensive ones did. They were fighting against market segmentation, which was obviously a failing strategy and I'm surprised they got any investors at all.

duped 4y ago

Moviepass failed because they lost money on every subscriber and didn't get the critical mass to get discounted tickets to cinemas. They took an antagonistic stance towards the major theaters and lost. That said it could have worked if they took a different approach. Businesses like theaters want to fill their seats and will gladly reduce prices if they aren't able to sell at the full ticket price initially. Basically the problem to solve isn't filling up the theater for the midnight release of the next Marvel film, it's filling in those seats for the art house flick in its second week before leaving theaters or packing the house until it leaves. A subscription service that can put butts in chairs could work if it addresses that real market inefficiency. I believe one exists for this purpose on Broadway but I don't think it's an app. The danger is the theater doesn't want to enable scalping. The other giant whole in the live and recorded media landscape is discovery. Customer acquisition costs are enormous for media producers (particularly the poor, local ones that are beloved but teetering on bankruptcy). Basically what I'm saying is the model should be partnership with the venues and not attempts to disrupt them. Here's something I'd pay $20 a month for. Give me two tickets every other weekend to some random show the day before at a theater or cinema. My partner and I will see it. Use whatever tech or business relationship to pick the day before what that is and we'll do it.

batiudrami 4y ago
I agree that MoviePass was close to having a workable system. There needs to be some concessions though - maybe something like only unsold seats (so you may not be able to see something on opening weekend) and no seat reservation so the best seats go to full price customers. Plus you need to have studios on board and a different agreed way of paying them to the current proportion of ticket price.
- toast0 4y ago
  AMC and Regal have similar programs now. The price point isn't as nice (especially it you want to use it areas with higher priced theaters), and you're limited to that chain, and maybe there's other restrictions. My local preferred theater doesn't have a program though, and such a program isn't enough to convince me to drive much farther to get to a theater I don't like as much.

gitgud 4y ago

Season passes for ski resorts are a similar concept. A one-time payment can get you unlimited access to multiple resorts. They've been doing this for decades, so they've proven the concept works.