3 ms·

> Fuck, let people live their lives. We all only get one. I think this is greatly simplifying the concerns that people have in transitioning minors, the statis

by nomel 4y ago

> Fuck, let people live their lives. We all only get one. I think this is greatly simplifying the concerns that people have in transitioning minors, the statistically anomalous rise in minors that identify as trans [1], and the safety of puberty blockers. For example, see the data that guided the recent Swedish health board decisions to mostly stop puberty blockers. I'm pointing out "minors", because it's all I see in serious discussions. These discussions, and even Sweden's decision, is labeled transphobic. It's trivial to find news article with the title "Sweden is killing trans people". The word "minor" appears to be the wedge driving the trans division, where those that don't support know that minors aren't good with permanent decision, and those that do support it know that the permanent decision needs to be made as early as possible. I don't think the wedge will be removed without hard science proving safety, which natures statement can only impede. As some evidence that 15 years ago was better for LGB than it is now for T: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dramatic_television_series_with_LGBT_characters:_1960s–2000s https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dramatic_television_se... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_transgender_characters_in_television https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_transgender_characters... 1. Doubled since 2017: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/10/science/transgender-teenagers-national-survey.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/10/science/transgender-teena... 5x in 13-17 vs 65 years old: https://www.losangelesblade.com/2022/06/10/study-300000-youth-ages-13-17-identify-as-transgender-in-the-us/ https://www.losangelesblade.com/2022/06/10/study-300000-yout...

magicalist 4y ago
- nomel 4y ago
  I'm sorry, but it's not that simple. Transitioning should start before puberty, for best outcome. There's no way to not "think of the children" since the best outcome requires children: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31682347/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31682347/
  - mike00632 4y ago
    Delaying puberty isn't "transitioning". You mentioned hormone blockers so you seem to have some knowledge which makes me think that you are intentionally misrepresenting what is happening in order to deny medical care to trans children. Despicable.
    - LawTalkingGuy 4y ago
      How do children who exhibit behaviors that the doctors and parents stereotype as opposite-sex benefit from having their natural development blocked with and/or overwhelmed with opposite-sex hormones? Most parents are fine with gender non-conforming children (in the parent's mind of course - the kid is just being themselves). It's not a panic for them to ask why modifying their child's body to match their toy choice is so important.
      - mike00632 4y ago
        1. Many parents are not fine with trans children. By suggesting that trans children are welcome you are ignoring the very real problems that the Conservative monsters are currently inflicting on them. 2. They benefit from having extra time to make a decision. When you (unnaturally, via the force of law) block children from receiving medical care then you cause them to develop sex characteristics that don't belong to them. If you think about it, you are doing to these children much worse than anything you are suggesting trans advocates are doing.
        LawTalkingGuy 4y ago
        Most parents are fine with "gender nonconformity". They're not fine with their children being told that they need drugs and surgeries. Read the stories about trans kids. People are reacting to stereotypes like how the child dresses or which toys they play with and they're saying which sex the child should be molded to resemble. Accepting parents let any sex play with any toy without scheduling an intervention. > develop sex characteristics that don't belong to them They do belong to them. They're the only working sex organs that child can ever have. Anything else is a non-functional at best. > extra time to make a decision This in untrue. puberty blockers can only work safely to delay puberty until the regular time so that it dovetails with other processes. When you delay proper pubertal changes you can never restart the process which cripples a child for life mentally and physically. > you are doing to these children much worse than I'm telling the truth. Wild hormonal interventions and genital mutilation surgeries are not healthcare, even if they're performed by people in lab coats.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
mike00632 4y ago
Did you know that more people came out as left handed when the condition stopped being stigmatized? I don't share your "concerns" about there being more LGBT people in the world because they were always there; now they are just being recognized (by both rights groups and bigots who are currently focusing on them).
- nomel 4y ago
  I don't see how left and right hand matches the fact that there are 5x more 13-17 than 65 year old identifying as trans, unless you're suggesting that gender is learned, like right handedness was, and like all those older people, who should be trans, are now comfortable the way they are. But, I'm nobody, looking at numbers I probably don't understand. The problem here is that Nature is saying that these numbers should be considered, but potentially discarded, depending on the conclusion they make.
  - mike00632 4y ago
    Trans people are literally being murdered. Kids are kicked out of their homes for being trans. The Republican party is currently centering their platform on hatred towards trans people, blaming them for all societal woes. There are now laws being enacted that ban trans people from public places. Yet you not see how this could discourage people from coming out as trans?
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

by nomel 4y ago

magicalist 4y ago

nomel 4y ago
I'm sorry, but it's not that simple. Transitioning should start before puberty, for best outcome. There's no way to not "think of the children" since the best outcome requires children: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31682347/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31682347/
- mike00632 4y ago
  Delaying puberty isn't "transitioning". You mentioned hormone blockers so you seem to have some knowledge which makes me think that you are intentionally misrepresenting what is happening in order to deny medical care to trans children. Despicable.
  - LawTalkingGuy 4y ago
    How do children who exhibit behaviors that the doctors and parents stereotype as opposite-sex benefit from having their natural development blocked with and/or overwhelmed with opposite-sex hormones? Most parents are fine with gender non-conforming children (in the parent's mind of course - the kid is just being themselves). It's not a panic for them to ask why modifying their child's body to match their toy choice is so important.
    - mike00632 4y ago
      1. Many parents are not fine with trans children. By suggesting that trans children are welcome you are ignoring the very real problems that the Conservative monsters are currently inflicting on them. 2. They benefit from having extra time to make a decision. When you (unnaturally, via the force of law) block children from receiving medical care then you cause them to develop sex characteristics that don't belong to them. If you think about it, you are doing to these children much worse than anything you are suggesting trans advocates are doing.
      - LawTalkingGuy 4y ago
        Most parents are fine with "gender nonconformity". They're not fine with their children being told that they need drugs and surgeries. Read the stories about trans kids. People are reacting to stereotypes like how the child dresses or which toys they play with and they're saying which sex the child should be molded to resemble. Accepting parents let any sex play with any toy without scheduling an intervention. > develop sex characteristics that don't belong to them They do belong to them. They're the only working sex organs that child can ever have. Anything else is a non-functional at best. > extra time to make a decision This in untrue. puberty blockers can only work safely to delay puberty until the regular time so that it dovetails with other processes. When you delay proper pubertal changes you can never restart the process which cripples a child for life mentally and physically. > you are doing to these children much worse than I'm telling the truth. Wild hormonal interventions and genital mutilation surgeries are not healthcare, even if they're performed by people in lab coats.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

mike00632 4y ago

Did you know that more people came out as left handed when the condition stopped being stigmatized? I don't share your "concerns" about there being more LGBT people in the world because they were always there; now they are just being recognized (by both rights groups and bigots who are currently focusing on them).

nomel 4y ago
I don't see how left and right hand matches the fact that there are 5x more 13-17 than 65 year old identifying as trans, unless you're suggesting that gender is learned, like right handedness was, and like all those older people, who should be trans, are now comfortable the way they are. But, I'm nobody, looking at numbers I probably don't understand. The problem here is that Nature is saying that these numbers should be considered, but potentially discarded, depending on the conclusion they make.
- mike00632 4y ago
  Trans people are literally being murdered. Kids are kicked out of their homes for being trans. The Republican party is currently centering their platform on hatred towards trans people, blaming them for all societal woes. There are now laws being enacted that ban trans people from public places. Yet you not see how this could discourage people from coming out as trans?

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]