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> And in 2009, nine years after its purchase by Unilever, France's biggest Dijon producer, Amora-Maille (which makes Maille mustard), closed its Dijon factory,

> And in 2009, nine years after its purchase by Unilever, France's biggest Dijon producer, Amora-Maille (which makes Maille mustard), closed its Dijon factory, moving production to the nearby commune of Chevigny-Saint-Sauveur. Before you bring out the pitchforks about this heinous act of culinary imperialism by a soulless British megacorp, check Google Maps: Chevigny-Saint-Sauveur is all of 9 km away from the center of Dijon. https://goo.gl/maps/f2REE1Tuk53BDGb96 https://goo.gl/maps/f2REE1Tuk53BDGb96

n3storm 4y ago
This is common in Europe as some industries started long time ago inside or by the city centre and current laws forbid industrial areas grow, so growing factory means moving factory to another place further away from populated area.
- Glawen 4y ago
  this is a very stupid law in my opinion. There is a push from city dwellers to ban cars, but when you work in a factory which is 10km away from the city how do you do without cars? The factory area in my city has no bike lane, no tramway and only one bus line, for around 10000 workers. Everyone is using its car...
  - Xylakant 4y ago
    The problem is very often not a law, but space constraints. Often the city grew around the commercial area and there’s just no space to grow. And even if space is available, it may be costly. So there’s essentially two options: stop growing or move. The industrial or commercial area not having a bike lane or a tram connection is not a law of nature. Those can (and should) be built when you open a new zone, especially one that has ten thousands of workers. This used to be common and sometimes even financed by the company, for example the Siemensbahn in Berlin - paid for and constructed by Siemens to facilitate worker access to its plants https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siemensbahn https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siemensbahn
  - herbst 4y ago
    This question sounds weird to someone who only lived in bike and public transport friendly cities. Any 'factory area' I know has dedicated bike lanes to reach them, is usually connected to the train system and more often than not has busses directly from the city center as well. If there is a bigger car parking it's usually not close to the factory, but next to to a close train station. Most 'factory areas' around here are not huge tho, but integrated into a smaller village or so. You usually have several eating and shopping options in walking distance. We usually don't build big single use zones anywhere.
    - Glawen 4y ago
      You don't realise how badly they are designed until you try to go there without your car. Maybe the train comes only twice in the morning, and twice in the afternoon. Maybe you have 1km of your ride that you must share with trucks on a busy road.
      - jmrm 4y ago
        That depends the place. I had to use public transport in an European city every morning for some years, and my bus route had a bus every 5 minutes, making a lot of workers using it massively. There are similar lines that move people from and to further industrial part of the city looking for the same result: Less cars in the road congesting the circulation, less pollution, less need to parking spot to the people, and less people who don't need a car.
        Glawen 4y ago
        Of course that depends, the place I'm working now has a train station just in front of the building, but I don't take it because there are only 2 train in the morning and 2 in the evening. My previous employer had a train station in front of the building, and a train every 30min. I didn't take my car.
  - noselasd 4y ago
    But tearing down those dwellings to make space for the factories means the people would have move instead, so don't you end up with much of the same problem ? I suppose it's more a matter of how the city is structured, whether there are easy transport to the city center vs easy transport to the industrial areas outside the city.
    - Glawen 4y ago
      In Germany you have factories in the city and that is great. Many people are living just around the factory, and they benefit from the extensive public transport network that a city provide. My example is Stuttgart, working for one of the big employer there. They have several factory, an old one in the city, and a newer one in a small town 20km away from the first factory. The old factory benefits from the S bahn and U bahn station and very few people actually needed a car. The new factory has no S bahn, no U bahn, and just one bus line connecting the old factory to the new one. A life without car there is barely possible and all employees there had a car, which then led to a parking space issue (they transformed two adjacent fields into parking).
  - ThePadawan 4y ago
    A company near here runs shuttle services to the nearest train station during rush hour. If that means you don't have to build a parking lot, or provide surveillance or insurance for thousands of cars, that can be worth it.
  - prmoustache 4y ago
    Are you joking? - there are public transports - 10km is a 20min to 40min bicycle ride depending on level. The east side of Dijon being quite flat this is totally not a pita to do, more like a pleasant easy exercise every day. - A lot of people would run 10km before and/or after work to stay fit which can easily be combined into commuting provided showers are available. - in a lot of places in this world people are walking that amount to go to work every day, or even to get vital water supplies. The Rarámuri people living in the villages at the bottom of the Barrancas del Cobre (copper canyon) in Mexico aren't strangers to run that amount uphill every morning to go to work.
    - Glawen 4y ago
      I did the 15km ride in my city to reach the factory. I can tell you that it is very stressful to ride a bike on a busy road with no bike lane, filled with trucks driving at 70kmh (because this road is the one that trucks must take as they are not allowed to cross through the city). Then imagine doing it at 7 in the morning in winter, when it is still night and some ice patch. Even if you make it alive, then comes the issue of shower availability. That's what is blocking me from riding the 35km from my current job: I have no access to a shower at work. My city has the most extensive bike lane network in France, except for the place where workers are working. If you work in the city center, you are fine and it is pleasant, but then you are part of the lucky workers enjoying the benefits of living in a city.
      - prmoustache 4y ago
        Well I have been cycling on the roads since I was 12 and I have cycled to work all my career but the last 2 years so I know what a busy road is. It is hard to talk about safety / how stressful riding a bike is because it is totally personal. I am used to traffic in a way I am not hyper anxious on the road while my gf is literally frightened in the traffic and it is not entirely corelated to the actual danger. For a 35km bike ride (used to do that), you definitely want a shower. For a 10km mostly flat ride? Take it easy and you should be fine just with a short cleanup and possibly t-shirt swap in the bathroom. I've been known to ride with studded tires in the winter, works really well. It is actually safer to ride a bicycle with studded tires than a car with winter non studded tires on black ice in winter. It means a bit of investment in a dedicated bike/wheelset though. Same for riding in the dark. Blinky 5€ lights won't do but reflective wearables and decent bright front and rear lights can do a lot to increase visibility and safety.
  - Ekaros 4y ago
    Looking at map there is plenty of residential near the factory. So really no issue. And the distance is from centre of the city. So rather weird way to think.
    - Glawen 4y ago
      I'm not living in Dijon. I speak about zoning law who segregate residential and industrial areas. But I had a look at Amora factory and the first thing I notice is that there is no bike lane on the road leading to the factory, which is 3km from the village center. Actually there are no bike lane in the town of Chevigny-Saint-Sauveur. And I don't really see public transport around (no train, no tram, no bus stop in front). This is a typical factory area in France designed to be reached by car only and I'm not fine with it. Please check in Germany where you have factory in the city! Porsche factory in zuffenhausen, Mercedes factory in unterturckheim, Bosch factory in Feuerbach.
  - Fnoord 4y ago
    I live in Amsterdam area (not Amsterdam) and the commute is short and pleasant. For the rent I pay I'd get probably about half of this size in Amsterdam. If anything at all. Also, the problem you described is a chicken/egg issue which requires effort and investment. It can be solved, but not overnight.

n3storm 4y ago

This is common in Europe as some industries started long time ago inside or by the city centre and current laws forbid industrial areas grow, so growing factory means moving factory to another place further away from populated area.

Glawen 4y ago
this is a very stupid law in my opinion. There is a push from city dwellers to ban cars, but when you work in a factory which is 10km away from the city how do you do without cars? The factory area in my city has no bike lane, no tramway and only one bus line, for around 10000 workers. Everyone is using its car...
- Xylakant 4y ago
  The problem is very often not a law, but space constraints. Often the city grew around the commercial area and there’s just no space to grow. And even if space is available, it may be costly. So there’s essentially two options: stop growing or move. The industrial or commercial area not having a bike lane or a tram connection is not a law of nature. Those can (and should) be built when you open a new zone, especially one that has ten thousands of workers. This used to be common and sometimes even financed by the company, for example the Siemensbahn in Berlin - paid for and constructed by Siemens to facilitate worker access to its plants https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siemensbahn https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siemensbahn
- herbst 4y ago
  This question sounds weird to someone who only lived in bike and public transport friendly cities. Any 'factory area' I know has dedicated bike lanes to reach them, is usually connected to the train system and more often than not has busses directly from the city center as well. If there is a bigger car parking it's usually not close to the factory, but next to to a close train station. Most 'factory areas' around here are not huge tho, but integrated into a smaller village or so. You usually have several eating and shopping options in walking distance. We usually don't build big single use zones anywhere.
  - Glawen 4y ago
    You don't realise how badly they are designed until you try to go there without your car. Maybe the train comes only twice in the morning, and twice in the afternoon. Maybe you have 1km of your ride that you must share with trucks on a busy road.
    - jmrm 4y ago
      That depends the place. I had to use public transport in an European city every morning for some years, and my bus route had a bus every 5 minutes, making a lot of workers using it massively. There are similar lines that move people from and to further industrial part of the city looking for the same result: Less cars in the road congesting the circulation, less pollution, less need to parking spot to the people, and less people who don't need a car.
      - Glawen 4y ago
        Of course that depends, the place I'm working now has a train station just in front of the building, but I don't take it because there are only 2 train in the morning and 2 in the evening. My previous employer had a train station in front of the building, and a train every 30min. I didn't take my car.
- noselasd 4y ago
  But tearing down those dwellings to make space for the factories means the people would have move instead, so don't you end up with much of the same problem ? I suppose it's more a matter of how the city is structured, whether there are easy transport to the city center vs easy transport to the industrial areas outside the city.
  - Glawen 4y ago
    In Germany you have factories in the city and that is great. Many people are living just around the factory, and they benefit from the extensive public transport network that a city provide. My example is Stuttgart, working for one of the big employer there. They have several factory, an old one in the city, and a newer one in a small town 20km away from the first factory. The old factory benefits from the S bahn and U bahn station and very few people actually needed a car. The new factory has no S bahn, no U bahn, and just one bus line connecting the old factory to the new one. A life without car there is barely possible and all employees there had a car, which then led to a parking space issue (they transformed two adjacent fields into parking).
- ThePadawan 4y ago
  A company near here runs shuttle services to the nearest train station during rush hour. If that means you don't have to build a parking lot, or provide surveillance or insurance for thousands of cars, that can be worth it.
- prmoustache 4y ago
  Are you joking? - there are public transports - 10km is a 20min to 40min bicycle ride depending on level. The east side of Dijon being quite flat this is totally not a pita to do, more like a pleasant easy exercise every day. - A lot of people would run 10km before and/or after work to stay fit which can easily be combined into commuting provided showers are available. - in a lot of places in this world people are walking that amount to go to work every day, or even to get vital water supplies. The Rarámuri people living in the villages at the bottom of the Barrancas del Cobre (copper canyon) in Mexico aren't strangers to run that amount uphill every morning to go to work.
  - Glawen 4y ago
    I did the 15km ride in my city to reach the factory. I can tell you that it is very stressful to ride a bike on a busy road with no bike lane, filled with trucks driving at 70kmh (because this road is the one that trucks must take as they are not allowed to cross through the city). Then imagine doing it at 7 in the morning in winter, when it is still night and some ice patch. Even if you make it alive, then comes the issue of shower availability. That's what is blocking me from riding the 35km from my current job: I have no access to a shower at work. My city has the most extensive bike lane network in France, except for the place where workers are working. If you work in the city center, you are fine and it is pleasant, but then you are part of the lucky workers enjoying the benefits of living in a city.
    - prmoustache 4y ago
      Well I have been cycling on the roads since I was 12 and I have cycled to work all my career but the last 2 years so I know what a busy road is. It is hard to talk about safety / how stressful riding a bike is because it is totally personal. I am used to traffic in a way I am not hyper anxious on the road while my gf is literally frightened in the traffic and it is not entirely corelated to the actual danger. For a 35km bike ride (used to do that), you definitely want a shower. For a 10km mostly flat ride? Take it easy and you should be fine just with a short cleanup and possibly t-shirt swap in the bathroom. I've been known to ride with studded tires in the winter, works really well. It is actually safer to ride a bicycle with studded tires than a car with winter non studded tires on black ice in winter. It means a bit of investment in a dedicated bike/wheelset though. Same for riding in the dark. Blinky 5€ lights won't do but reflective wearables and decent bright front and rear lights can do a lot to increase visibility and safety.
- Ekaros 4y ago
  Looking at map there is plenty of residential near the factory. So really no issue. And the distance is from centre of the city. So rather weird way to think.
  - Glawen 4y ago
    I'm not living in Dijon. I speak about zoning law who segregate residential and industrial areas. But I had a look at Amora factory and the first thing I notice is that there is no bike lane on the road leading to the factory, which is 3km from the village center. Actually there are no bike lane in the town of Chevigny-Saint-Sauveur. And I don't really see public transport around (no train, no tram, no bus stop in front). This is a typical factory area in France designed to be reached by car only and I'm not fine with it. Please check in Germany where you have factory in the city! Porsche factory in zuffenhausen, Mercedes factory in unterturckheim, Bosch factory in Feuerbach.
- Fnoord 4y ago
  I live in Amsterdam area (not Amsterdam) and the commute is short and pleasant. For the rent I pay I'd get probably about half of this size in Amsterdam. If anything at all. Also, the problem you described is a chicken/egg issue which requires effort and investment. It can be solved, but not overnight.