5 ms·

https://youtu.be/uU7nzwbJ-Hk?t=41 https://youtu.be/uU7nzwbJ-Hk?t=41 Here is a good example: > "I want to recognize that your line of questioning is transphobi

by Dig1t 4y ago

https://youtu.be/uU7nzwbJ-Hk?t=41 https://youtu.be/uU7nzwbJ-Hk?t=41 Here is a good example: > "I want to recognize that your line of questioning is transphobic and opens trans people up to violence" This is a US senator and a Berkeley law professor talking in court.

pmyteh 4y ago
That's not making the claim that the line of questioning is itself violence. It's making the claim that a consequence of the line of questioning is going to be violence against trans people (in an unspecified time and place). I don't know the context, or how sane the claim is. But I don't think it's an example of what GP said.
- FFRefresh 4y ago
  But making it known that the line of questioning will bring violence to others is implying that if the person continues the line of questioning, they are then knowingly and intentionally bringing violence to trans people. In a lot of legal systems and with informal norms, if you know your action will cause harm to others, and you do it anyway, you are considered a cause of the harm. Claims that an action can cause violence are ultimately claims that the action causes violence.
deanCommie 4y ago
Let's start with this: I don't know how I can explain why this kind of discourse opens trans people up to violence if we can't first agree why this is transphobic. Fundamentally we keep having this conversation in humanity. "This is wrong (homophobic, transphobic, racist, classist, casteist)" "No it isn't!" And over and over and over again. And we look back and think how could it have been possible that we were SO discriminatory in the past, but SO enlightened now, and yet we repeat the same mistakes again. And you have some feminists that exclude trans women. And you have some black people perpetuating homophobia. 15 years ago we were having EXACTLY the same discourse about gay marriage as we do today about trans rights. It's exhausting how much some humans are committed to making the lives of other humans on this planet shitty. Fuck, let people live their lives. We all only get one.
- nomel 4y ago
  > Fuck, let people live their lives. We all only get one. I think this is greatly simplifying the concerns that people have in transitioning minors, the statistically anomalous rise in minors that identify as trans [1], and the safety of puberty blockers. For example, see the data that guided the recent Swedish health board decisions to mostly stop puberty blockers. I'm pointing out "minors", because it's all I see in serious discussions. These discussions, and even Sweden's decision, is labeled transphobic. It's trivial to find news article with the title "Sweden is killing trans people". The word "minor" appears to be the wedge driving the trans division, where those that don't support know that minors aren't good with permanent decision, and those that do support it know that the permanent decision needs to be made as early as possible. I don't think the wedge will be removed without hard science proving safety, which natures statement can only impede. As some evidence that 15 years ago was better for LGB than it is now for T: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dramatic_television_series_with_LGBT_characters:_1960s–2000s https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dramatic_television_se... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_transgender_characters_in_television https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_transgender_characters... 1. Doubled since 2017: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/10/science/transgender-teenagers-national-survey.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/10/science/transgender-teena... 5x in 13-17 vs 65 years old: https://www.losangelesblade.com/2022/06/10/study-300000-youth-ages-13-17-identify-as-transgender-in-the-us/ https://www.losangelesblade.com/2022/06/10/study-300000-yout...
  - magicalist 4y ago
    - nomel 4y ago
      I'm sorry, but it's not that simple. Transitioning should start before puberty, for best outcome. There's no way to not "think of the children" since the best outcome requires children: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31682347/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31682347/
      - 4y ago
scelerat 4y ago
She didn't say the words were themselves violence, which was the original claim. She said that transphobia opens trans people to violence. Those are different things.

by Dig1t 4y ago

pmyteh 4y ago

That's not making the claim that the line of questioning is itself violence. It's making the claim that a consequence of the line of questioning is going to be violence against trans people (in an unspecified time and place). I don't know the context, or how sane the claim is. But I don't think it's an example of what GP said.

FFRefresh 4y ago
But making it known that the line of questioning will bring violence to others is implying that if the person continues the line of questioning, they are then knowingly and intentionally bringing violence to trans people. In a lot of legal systems and with informal norms, if you know your action will cause harm to others, and you do it anyway, you are considered a cause of the harm. Claims that an action can cause violence are ultimately claims that the action causes violence.

deanCommie 4y ago

Let's start with this: I don't know how I can explain why this kind of discourse opens trans people up to violence if we can't first agree why this is transphobic. Fundamentally we keep having this conversation in humanity. "This is wrong (homophobic, transphobic, racist, classist, casteist)" "No it isn't!" And over and over and over again. And we look back and think how could it have been possible that we were SO discriminatory in the past, but SO enlightened now, and yet we repeat the same mistakes again. And you have some feminists that exclude trans women. And you have some black people perpetuating homophobia. 15 years ago we were having EXACTLY the same discourse about gay marriage as we do today about trans rights. It's exhausting how much some humans are committed to making the lives of other humans on this planet shitty. Fuck, let people live their lives. We all only get one.

nomel 4y ago
> Fuck, let people live their lives. We all only get one. I think this is greatly simplifying the concerns that people have in transitioning minors, the statistically anomalous rise in minors that identify as trans [1], and the safety of puberty blockers. For example, see the data that guided the recent Swedish health board decisions to mostly stop puberty blockers. I'm pointing out "minors", because it's all I see in serious discussions. These discussions, and even Sweden's decision, is labeled transphobic. It's trivial to find news article with the title "Sweden is killing trans people". The word "minor" appears to be the wedge driving the trans division, where those that don't support know that minors aren't good with permanent decision, and those that do support it know that the permanent decision needs to be made as early as possible. I don't think the wedge will be removed without hard science proving safety, which natures statement can only impede. As some evidence that 15 years ago was better for LGB than it is now for T: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dramatic_television_series_with_LGBT_characters:_1960s–2000s https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dramatic_television_se... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_transgender_characters_in_television https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_transgender_characters... 1. Doubled since 2017: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/10/science/transgender-teenagers-national-survey.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/10/science/transgender-teena... 5x in 13-17 vs 65 years old: https://www.losangelesblade.com/2022/06/10/study-300000-youth-ages-13-17-identify-as-transgender-in-the-us/ https://www.losangelesblade.com/2022/06/10/study-300000-yout...
- magicalist 4y ago
  - nomel 4y ago
    I'm sorry, but it's not that simple. Transitioning should start before puberty, for best outcome. There's no way to not "think of the children" since the best outcome requires children: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31682347/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31682347/
    - 4y ago

scelerat 4y ago

She didn't say the words were themselves violence, which was the original claim. She said that transphobia opens trans people to violence. Those are different things.