6 ms·

I'm waiting to see someone get prosecuted for this "fraud": Q: So, Mr. Defendant, when you signed up for this service, did you intend to pay? A: Yes Q: And d

I'm waiting to see someone get prosecuted for this "fraud": Q: So, Mr. Defendant, when you signed up for this service, did you intend to pay? A: Yes Q: And did you pay? A: Yes Q: But eventually you cancelled the credit card? A: Yes Q: And why did you do that? A: I was tired of the service, and they made it almost impossible to cancel. At that point, the prosecution drops the case. But hey, if you want to keep paying for a shitty service you don't want anymore because you can't jump through all their hoops... well, you do you.

brnt 4y ago
At least in Europe, these sorts of dark patterns are very much illegal and I've never seen them in the wild (from Europe based businesses).
- morelisp 4y ago
  Prior to this year, German consumer contracts were even worse than American ones. Three years was the normal, with three month notice periods, limited cancellation windows, no prorated refunds, and just as many dark patterns.
  - brnt 4y ago
    Hadn't expected that from Germany! What changed? Here in NL the law requires that cancellation must always be possible through the same channels as signup, and I assumed this was due to a EU directive implemented everywhere.
    - rambambram 4y ago
      I was flabbergasted that even NS (Dutch railway) tries this shit. I subscribed to one of their products through a simple webform, and to cancel I had to contact their webcare people in some kind of webchat. No thanks.
      - brnt 4y ago
        You're right! NS is the worst experience I've ever had. They also can't run trains worth a dime.
    - morelisp 4y ago
      > Hadn't expected that from Germany! What changed? I didn't see anything about EU compliance in the relevant news (and it was relatively big news for such a quotidian change). Possibly the number of people with useless gym etc. memberships after corona was the last straw - these were often 2-3y autorenewing contracts, for fairly large amounts.
- scrollaway 4y ago
  I have sometimes seen shitty things from insurance companies. Such as: "Your insurance is renewing on August 1st and you need to send us a filled 3-page PDF to this address in order to cancel it 30 days prior" My strategy: Fire off an email to whatever billing email is on there, say "I will not be renewing this insurance", and cancel the direct debit. They will try to charge, send a couple letters, and it's all safe to ignore because I've stated my intent to cancel in time.
cedilla 4y ago
Why is the prosecution asking about irrelevant things like that? Why doesn't it continue like this: Q: But eventually you cancelled the credit card? A: Yes. Q: Despite your contractual obligation to pay? A: yes, but they made it impossible to can... Judge: You must only answer the question.
- lupire 4y ago
  The defense gets to speak too. Court isn't a video game. Contracts can be unconscionable or otherwise illegal.
- UIUC_06 4y ago
  Actually, the dialog would go like this: Q: But eventually you cancelled the credit card? A: Yes. Q: Despite your contractual obligation to pay? Defense counsel: Objection, your honor. Leading the witness. Judge: sustained Want to try again?
  - morelisp 4y ago
    Watch fewer court shows please. This wouldn’t happen during a cross examination.
    - synu 4y ago
      Usually at this point I believe the correct procedure is that someone shouts “I’m putting the whole system on trial” and then everyone is forced to acquiesce.
    - UIUC_06 4y ago
      I've been to actual trials, and yes it does happen. You're right about one thing, though; it's much briefer. All the lawyer says is "Objection. Leading." They do it so much that they don't waste words like on TV.
- wanderingmind 4y ago
  The verdict is given by jury in US. No jury is going to find you guilty for cancelling credit card after trying to unsubscribe.
JumpCrisscross 4y ago
> the prosecution drops the case Agreed, someone would have to be egregious to attract prosecutorial attention. But for a civil judgement, using a temporary card with a fake name that is cancelled without notice (particularly if a discount was offered up front in exchange for commitment) is going to weigh in the plaintiff's favor. That, in turn, factors into e.g. credit agencies when considering taking such items off a report after the debt collector who bought it begins collections. TL; DR This is a fine strategy. But try to cancel using the service's means. If they force you through loopholes, fire off an email and carry on. None of this is legal advice. But it does seem like the courteous thing to do.

brnt 4y ago

At least in Europe, these sorts of dark patterns are very much illegal and I've never seen them in the wild (from Europe based businesses).

morelisp 4y ago
Prior to this year, German consumer contracts were even worse than American ones. Three years was the normal, with three month notice periods, limited cancellation windows, no prorated refunds, and just as many dark patterns.
- brnt 4y ago
  Hadn't expected that from Germany! What changed? Here in NL the law requires that cancellation must always be possible through the same channels as signup, and I assumed this was due to a EU directive implemented everywhere.
  - rambambram 4y ago
    I was flabbergasted that even NS (Dutch railway) tries this shit. I subscribed to one of their products through a simple webform, and to cancel I had to contact their webcare people in some kind of webchat. No thanks.
    - brnt 4y ago
      You're right! NS is the worst experience I've ever had. They also can't run trains worth a dime.
  - morelisp 4y ago
    > Hadn't expected that from Germany! What changed? I didn't see anything about EU compliance in the relevant news (and it was relatively big news for such a quotidian change). Possibly the number of people with useless gym etc. memberships after corona was the last straw - these were often 2-3y autorenewing contracts, for fairly large amounts.
scrollaway 4y ago
I have sometimes seen shitty things from insurance companies. Such as: "Your insurance is renewing on August 1st and you need to send us a filled 3-page PDF to this address in order to cancel it 30 days prior" My strategy: Fire off an email to whatever billing email is on there, say "I will not be renewing this insurance", and cancel the direct debit. They will try to charge, send a couple letters, and it's all safe to ignore because I've stated my intent to cancel in time.

cedilla 4y ago

Why is the prosecution asking about irrelevant things like that? Why doesn't it continue like this: Q: But eventually you cancelled the credit card? A: Yes. Q: Despite your contractual obligation to pay? A: yes, but they made it impossible to can... Judge: You must only answer the question.

lupire 4y ago
The defense gets to speak too. Court isn't a video game. Contracts can be unconscionable or otherwise illegal.
UIUC_06 4y ago
Actually, the dialog would go like this: Q: But eventually you cancelled the credit card? A: Yes. Q: Despite your contractual obligation to pay? Defense counsel: Objection, your honor. Leading the witness. Judge: sustained Want to try again?
- morelisp 4y ago
  Watch fewer court shows please. This wouldn’t happen during a cross examination.
  - synu 4y ago
    Usually at this point I believe the correct procedure is that someone shouts “I’m putting the whole system on trial” and then everyone is forced to acquiesce.
  - UIUC_06 4y ago
    I've been to actual trials, and yes it does happen. You're right about one thing, though; it's much briefer. All the lawyer says is "Objection. Leading." They do it so much that they don't waste words like on TV.
wanderingmind 4y ago
The verdict is given by jury in US. No jury is going to find you guilty for cancelling credit card after trying to unsubscribe.

JumpCrisscross 4y ago

> the prosecution drops the case Agreed, someone would have to be egregious to attract prosecutorial attention. But for a civil judgement, using a temporary card with a fake name that is cancelled without notice (particularly if a discount was offered up front in exchange for commitment) is going to weigh in the plaintiff's favor. That, in turn, factors into e.g. credit agencies when considering taking such items off a report after the debt collector who bought it begins collections. TL; DR This is a fine strategy. But try to cancel using the service's means. If they force you through loopholes, fire off an email and carry on. None of this is legal advice. But it does seem like the courteous thing to do.